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VegMommy wrote:I think you misunderstood me. By "the same nonsense", I mean the idea that it's impossible to get ahead. It was wrong then and it's wrong now.
hazelrah wrote:I did midunderstand you, but the social movements you seem to be deriding are part of the reason that it was, is, and, hopefully, always will be, wrong. People found a way to transcend their circumstances by enlisting and accepting the good will of people who were earnestly trying to improve the world around them. They made a lot of mistakes, but they were more than just random bits of protoplasm responding to their basest drives.
Mark
Spiral wrote:
If you ask 100 people, "Do you think we should try to improve our circumstances and try to improve our society?" You will likely receive 100 answers of "Yes!"
If you ask 100 people, "What sort of ideas do you have that would lead to an improvement in our circumstances, an improvement in our society?" You will likely receive at least 100 answers.
dteresa wrote:An illness can destroy your savings. Being injured and maimed in a war might make you dependent on others. Loss of a job in a poor economy with little hope of getting another at your previous salary can wreak havoc with your standard of living. Minimum wage jobs might not supply a family with enough money to pay rent, eat, seek medical care etc. All good reasons for the community to lend a hand. Such things could happen to anyone. By lend a hand I mean a hand up. I see no moral obligation to provide necessities so people can use what they do have to take vacations or buy items you, who are helping, cannot afford or in your own financial circumstances would not purchase.
And then there are others whose foolish and irresponsible behavior for some reason, thanks to the present political climate, apparently entitles them to the taxpayers hard earned money. And who have the attitude that society owes them. Something that in another time and place would never have been tolerated.
didi
hazelrah wrote:Spiral wrote:
If you ask 100 people, "Do you think we should try to improve our circumstances and try to improve our society?" You will likely receive 100 answers of "Yes!"
If you ask 100 people, "What sort of ideas do you have that would lead to an improvement in our circumstances, an improvement in our society?" You will likely receive at least 100 answers.
I didn't think speculation was involved. The sentiment I understood was that we would have been better off if collective efforts like Occupy Wall Street and the liberalism of the 60's had never happened. That's an outright lie. We are better off today precisely because of things like Miranda rights and the efforts of the brave people who walked accross the Edmund Pettus bridge in Selma 50 years ago. It was not nonsense, just as all of us here are better off today because we found people who are unwilling to remain silent while healthcare is dictated by an industry that needed to develop a business model. So the lesson for me upon hearing the 100 disparate responses is to evaluate each and formulate my own, and then let them all churn through the political process. And, luckily for me, that is the legal and socially acceptable way that the discrepancy is resolved. When I'm really lucky, reasonable people get elected and I can believe that I will get the chance to see retirement. When I'm unlucky, unfettered free-market demigogues get elected with a passion to improve the world by eliminating government and the savings that I've spent many decades building dissolves overnight as does my hope for retirement.
Mark
Right on...I can't see why other ppl can't see this. Thom Hartman has been saying what you're saying for many years now. Ppl actually think poor ppl on welfare are living these extravagant lifestyles with their tax dollars. When I hear ppl say let the churches and communities lend a hand....they will do it.... Keep big government out....I LOL! Look how many mega churches and pastors have been busted. They are just as greedy as anyone else and they steal even more money from poor ppl telling them to give money and the lord will give back to you 10 fold. That is so foolish and complete nonsense. I never give any of my money to any churches, but I will give 10 or 20 dollars to the homeless guy on the street corner from my hand to his hand. Keep in mind that most wars have been fought over religion. The next major wars I believe will be fought over things like food and water.zumacraig wrote:dteresa wrote:An illness can destroy your savings. Being injured and maimed in a war might make you dependent on others. Loss of a job in a poor economy with little hope of getting another at your previous salary can wreak havoc with your standard of living. Minimum wage jobs might not supply a family with enough money to pay rent, eat, seek medical care etc. All good reasons for the community to lend a hand. Such things could happen to anyone. By lend a hand I mean a hand up. I see no moral obligation to provide necessities so people can use what they do have to take vacations or buy items you, who are helping, cannot afford or in your own financial circumstances would not purchase.
And then there are others whose foolish and irresponsible behavior for some reason, thanks to the present political climate, apparently entitles them to the taxpayers hard earned money. And who have the attitude that society owes them. Something that in another time and place would never have been tolerated.
didi
Your tax dollars are not paying for poor people to go to Disney World! They are paying for wars and corporate subsidies! And this age of entitlement narrative needs to end. We have to work together so that all have food, shelter, medical care. The capitalist way is not working. There is no rational reason we should be fighting for abundant resources.
katgirl55 wrote:There is such a thing as personal responsibility and accountability. There are things outside of our control that affect us every day. There are also things in our control, and if they are not working it is up to us to make changes.
petero wrote:katgirl55 wrote:There is such a thing as personal responsibility and accountability. There are things outside of our control that affect us every day. There are also things in our control, and if they are not working it is up to us to make changes.
That's right. That change is called "revolution". It's not what you meant, but see what I did there?
I'm late to the party and I try not to engage in necromancy so I just wanted to post this relevant link about the punishment of children: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekutmSx ... ubs_digest
rica’s wealth grew by 60 percent in the past six years, by over $30 trillion. In approximately the same time, the number of homeless children has also grown by 60 percent.
Financier and CEO Peter Schiff said, “People don’t go hungry in a capitalist economy.” The 16 million kids on food stamps know what it’s like to go hungry. Perhaps, some in Congress would say, those children should be working. “There is no such thing as a free lunch,” insisted Georgia Representative Jack Kingston, even for schoolkids, who should be required to “sweep the floor of the cafeteria” (as they actually do at a charter school in Texas).
The U.S. has one of the highest relative child poverty rates in the developed world. As UNICEF reports, “[Children's] material well-being is highest in the Netherlands and in the four Nordic countries and lowest in Latvia, Lithuania, Romania and the United States.”
Over half of public school students are poor enough to qualify for lunch subsidies, and almost half of black children under the age of six are living in poverty.
$5 a Day for Food, But Congress Thought it was Too Much.
Nearly half of all food stamp recipients are children, and they averaged about $5 a day for their meals before the 2014 farm bill cut $8.6 billion (over the next ten years) from the food stamp program.
In 2007 about 12 of every 100 kids were on food stamps. Today it’s 20 of every 100.
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