Are High-GI Foods Damaging While WFPB?

[z a b]

The effect of consuming carbohydrates, especially simple carbohydrates without fiber, while having a high level of blood fat is known: great effort is required from the pancreas in order to allow blood glucose to enter the cells, blood glucose level then becomes low, triglycerides could rise and diabetes could develop over time.

I am curious to know what effect the consmption of simple carbohydrates without fiber, such as white rice, has on the human body while following a WFPB diet. Since the factor of high blood-fat level becomes irrelevant and glucose can enter the cells efficiently and quickly, are simple carbohydrates still damaging? If so, in what way?

Thank you.

[colonyofcells]

I do not use the concept of glycemic index and I do not recall Dr Mcdougall using the concept. My impression is that white rice is allowed for those who are unable to give up white rice bec of cultural traditions. I have read some asian history and what I learned was that brown rice came first and white rice came later. I would guess that white rice became cheaper after the industrial revolution and after fossil fuels. I do not eat white rice so I do not worry about white rice. From the webinars, My impression is that Dr Mcdougall blames oil more than white rice and sweeteners. There are differences of opinion with other vegan promoters. Alan Goldhamer blames oil, sweeteners and salt. Dr Anthony Lim seems wary of both oil and overuse of sweeteners and he seems to also work at Truenorth health center so he might also be wary of salt.
In the mcdougall diet and for those who use white rice, white rice is usually eaten with vegetables and or beans so the whole meal does have some fiber.
I do not fear carbs since I exercise after each meal. Carbs is just gasoline so just use it.

[Ltldogg]

Hello z a b,

Here are pertinent articles from Dr. McDougall:

https://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2006nl ... ycemic.htm
https://www.drmcdougall.com/health/educ ... tes-sugar/
https://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2002nl ... tatoes.htm
https://www.drmcdougall.com/health/educ ... hite-rice/
https://www.drmcdougall.com/2013/12/31/ ... rice-diet/

And from the local Nutritionist/Dietician Jeff Novick:

viewtopic.php?t=10519

I hope this helps you!

Cheers,
Scott

[Timaca]

I will share my personal experience (without looking at the articles that were posted by Scott due to time constraints at the moment)....

I've been following my lipid levels closely, along with B12 and other labs due to health issues. I have multiple food intolerance issues so I write down what I eat and how I feel. So I know what I've been eating when the labs were drawn.

In essence, I was hoping for my best labs ever recently while eating WFPB no oil. I ended up with some surprisingly bad labs...worse than when I was eating fish and olive oil! My TG, while not over 150 were 147...highest ever (they were 90 when I was eating some fish and olive oil)....my LDL was 120 (up from 101) and my HDL was lowest ever at 39, down from 58.

I suspect, but am not sure, that it is because I was eating less sweet potatoes and more brown rice (not white rice but brown). And I was eating dates (for calories) and more fruits (because it was summer). So, I suspect the GI of my diet was higher than when I wasn't eating as much fruit (or dates) and I was eating primarily sweet potatoes. (Other grains don't seem to work for me except rice).

I am allowing myself some olive oil (less than 2 tsp per day--often times none) and some fish (when traveling if it is very fresh--eg I was recently in Seattle and had some. I will be traveling to Florida next week and will probably have some there). I have cut out many of the fruits (sadly) and the dates (sadly again). I will retest my lipids and B12 on Nov 1st when I am back from my travels.

My B12 dropped dramaticlly too to 317 (or there abouts) and I was beginning to have some symptoms which I believe to be due to B12 deficiency. And I seem to be the person who gets zits when I take B12 supplements so that is very annoying.

I don't think everyone has problems with the GI content of foods....probably the only way to know is to look at your labs and see. However, other doctors do mention it...it is on Dean Ornish's site as well as Esselstyne's and Dr. Fuhrman discusses it too in his book on heart disease. Some of the links to such info is on this poston my blog.

I'll know how much of a player it is in me in a couple of weeks after my lab draw. I can't only eat sweet potatoes...the rice has been a nice addition, along with the fruit, so it is sad to eat WFPB and have labs come back this bad!!

Best,

[z a b]

colonyofcells, I went over the list of links attached by Scott, who also responded to the thread, and read about rice in the McDougall. You are correct in that in the past, white rice was eaten by the wealthy in Asia and became to be considered a status symbol of the wealthy, while brown was the status symbol of the poor. McDougall advocates whole grains, but since Asians have been eating white rice for a long time with good health, he finds it acceptable, although not ideal.

I am aware that carbohydrates are the natural human fuel, and I am also aware that simple sugars consumed within a low-fat, high-carb diet do not seem to have negative consequences, but I have yet to find a definitive answer regarding this.

Could you elaborate regarding the outlook of the doctors you mentioned regarding sweeteners and salt? Especially sweeteners. I am curious.

Scott, thank you for the many links. I did find in them answers to some of my questions, but some are still answered. I am curious regarding the effect of simple sugars on the level of blood glucose of people following a WFPB diet; does it go up and then normalize, as opposed to becoming low? Also, some information seemed contradictory; McDougall argues -- quite passionately -- that our bodies do not convert sugars into fat efficiently, and later on he argues our bodies do convert sugars into fat efficiently when it comes to fructose.

Tina, I am sorry to hear about your struggles and unexpected lab results. I am no expert, so you may want to consult with other members. Since you mentioed that you still consume small amounts of fish and oil, it could be this has a great effect on blood fats; the combination of high fat and high carbohydrates is not ideal. With fat, a little goes a long way.

I wonder when you began suffering from this host of food allergies; quite unusual. I read about heavy-metal poisoning a few days ago, so it is still fresh in my mind. Just a suggestion, you may want to test that. Please update when you receive lab results again.

[colonyofcells]

Mcdougall diet allows the use of sweeteners as a condiment to make it easier for people to stick to the diet. Some people have decided to eliminate all sweeteners and everyone does agree that all sweeteners are junk food. Dried fruit can be used as sweeteners altho they are restricted on the mcdougall diet. Dried fruit basically lacks water and water is needed to make fiber work better altho I am not sure if drinking lots of water when eating dried fruit will help offset the problem with dried fruits. My opinion is that real food where water has been removed is already a type of refined food. I tend to cook mostly soups to help ensure I always get plenty of water.

[Timaca]

Hmmm.....not sure where my second post went....but here it is again....

Thanks for your thoughtful reply z a b. You misunderstood what I wrote. My labs eating WFPB, no oil are worse than when I ate olive oil and fish. The most recent labs included my eating brown rice and more fruits (both higher GI) than when I ate the fish and olive oil (no rice, little fruit). My best labs were when I ate WFPB with just a little fruit, no brown rice, fish or oil. But really, who wants a diet of entirely sweet potatoes and vegetables?? So I added in brown rice and more fruits because I could tolerate those foods, and my lipid levels got significantly worse. The only thing I can think of that would do that is the higher GI of the foods eaten. So, I am still eating some brown rice (but choosing long grain over short grain as I understand that to be better GI wise)...and I've cut back on my fruit. And I'm eating some olive oil and fish on occasion.

My BMI is 18.6.....just barely in the normal range and my fasting blood glucose is 70....so those are good.

We'll see what my labs look like in a couple of weeks. I'm hoping my B12 is coming up and my lipids look better.

But it is very disheartening to eat WFPB and have worse labs!!!
Best,

[bbq]

Wait a minute, ain't white rice refined complex carbohydrates instead of simple carbohydrates? Starches are still complex carbohydrates after refining them.

And then we've got less fiber, not really zero fiber:

[colonyofcells]

White rice does have some fiber left. My impression is that white pasta has more fiber than white rice.
For an asian female, normal bmi is probably about 18 to 21. I saw at least one study where the normal bmi for asian female is 1 point less than for an asian male. For an asian male, normal bmi is about 18 to 22. My bmi is quite close to bmi 23 which is overweight for an asian male.
The bmi guide of Dr Kempner seems even stricter than the bmi guide for asians and the bmi guide of Dr Kempner is probably too difficult for me to follow unless Dr Kempner is around to whip me if I do not comply.

[Timaca]

colonyofcells~
You might be interested in this article about Asians and lipid levels: http://www.pamf.org/southasian/healthy/ ... .html#What

Best,

[colonyofcells]

I do not bother to check my lipid levels since I am confident that eating unrefined vegan foods will help me live longer whatever my lipid numbers may say. For the masses, I would guess that lipid levels are just an indicator of meat eating and it is probably meat eating that is unhealthy. I try to avoid talking about substances like carb, fat, protein, cholesterol and triglycerides to avoid debates but I prefer to talk about real food and I do promote not eating animal products to anybody who wants to listen. I just say all animal products have 0 fiber and almost no micronutrients and are junk food instead of debating about carb, fat and cholesterol.

[GeoffreyLevens]

While living in South America I went big on tropical fruit. Checked A1c after a few months and it was 9!!! That's up from its usual 5.7 to 5. I really do not think it is the food but rather insulin resistance that is or can be the problem. If you lose all excess fat, esp the visceral kind. then glycemic index/load is totally irrelevant; I was carrying a small amount of extra because at the time being quite sedentary for a number or reasons. Now I can eat an entire meal of fruit and have my blood sugar to up to maybe 125 or 130 for an hour then back down. It isn't the sugars etc in the food but the blood sugar and accompanying insulin release in the blood stream that can be damaging.

[geo]

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Re: Are High-GI Foods Damaging While WFPB?

No.

Personal Proof: See my testamonial link in my sig...I ate tons of high-GI foods, aka potatoes

Note: Context is all important. My answer relates to the McDougall Program as taught here, not some random WFPB diet.