Re: twitchy blood sugar

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Re: twitchy blood sugar

Postby JeffN » Fri Apr 04, 2008 11:33 pm

Hi,

geoffreylevens wrote:Hello to all! I am new to McDougall (about 3 weeks) and have blood sugar issues.


Congratulations!

However, if you are not diabetic and your A1c is only 5.7, I do not see why you are testing your blood sugars the way you are. What is your fasting blood sugars in the AM first thing when you arise?

Even if you were a confirmed diabetic, I would not recommend such micro managing of someones blood sugars. Even in the most insulin resistant diabetics, I never have them check their blood sugar more than 1 or 2 times a day.

I have posted the data here already, on several studies on programs like this showing that about 70% of those on oral medications can get off of their medications and stay that way and about 40% of those on insulin can get off their insulin with normal blood sugars and stay that way in about 3-4 weeks.. These studies have 3 and 5 year follow ups. In addition, programs like this have been shown to reverse metabolic syndrome in around 50% of the patients in just 14 days. However, these are with strict adherence and those who are more insulin resistant may take slightly longer. Over the last 10 years, I have worked with literally thousands of diabetics and have seen them all dramatically improve (many are part of the above studies) over time to where their blood sugars are normal and/or they have reduced or completely eliminated their need for medications.

But again, I am not sure why you are micro-managing your blood sugars. If it because of a "fear" of potential future diabetes, my answer would be the same.

How to proceed?

The diet you are following is not one I would be recommending. The whey protein is not recommended at all. In addition, for optimal results, you might want to follow the recommendations in the maximum weight loss program, as eliminated all processed grains, even if they are whole grain, like bread, will provide the best results.

In addition, losing any excess weight if you have any, increasing daily activity to make sure you are getting in at least 30-60 minutes a day, making sure you get in at least 35 to 50 grams of fiber each day, with at least 12-16 at each meal, and focusing on unprocessed unrefined whole natural foods that are low in calorie density, would be very important.

If you are wanting to test your sugar, I would not recommend testing it anymore than once in the morning right after awakening before eating anything and again in the later afternoon at least 3 hours after you have finished eating lunch and before any afternoon snack if you were going to have one.

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Postby JeffN » Sat Apr 05, 2008 8:14 am

geoffreylevens wrote:Thank you Jeff! I don't have collected research but good source is Dr. Bernstein's Diabetes Solution. He is MD who has been specializing in low low carb diet for diabetes for 30 or 40 years with great success. Routinely gets most T2's off meds and T1's greatly reduce amount of insulin needed with very low carb.


It seems like you are mixing up a lot of misinformation from a lot of different sources.

I do not recommend the Bernstein solution. Can you cite published peer reviewed evidence in a mainstream medical journal of the ability of such a diet to get Type 2s of their medication and keep them that way?

geoffreylevens wrote:1)Glycosylation of proteins which my understanding is, occurs at sugar levels over about 100. A little and a little over a long time adds up to a lot. My A1c has gone up a bit in the last 2 or 3 years...from 5.5... My doctor expressed concern when I told him that I hit 170's-180's three times a day and he eats a fairly strict "raw vegan" (Graham's 80-10-10 diet). (Dr Bernstein advocates diabetics blood sugar should never go above 120 and ideally 100 with fasting below 90 and ideally below 85.)


I do not recommend the Bernstein approach. The accepted measure of glycosylation is the A1c and yours is low. Going up .2 is meaningless unless after several months you can show a consistent upward trend. All numbers fluctuate over time. I wouldnt measure A1c more than once a month, if that, as it is a 3 month average.

geoffreylevens wrote:2)The starvation feeling I get within a couple hours of eating. After two hours best keep pets and small children out of reach! Oh, wait, I'm vegetarian now...But seriously, I start to get pretty desperate to eat within a couple hours. On the greasy diet I could easily go 4-5 hours between meals and hunger was gradual onset rather than of the sudden "OhmyGodgottaeat" variety.


You may want to read the thread on calorie density. The Maximum Weight Loss program is based on calorie density and not only the best for weight loss but also the best approach for diabetics. You eliminate all processed/refined grains and also focus on foods in their natural state, which are lower in calorie density. This way, you will be able to fill up on much more food, for less calories, not go hungry and also increase the amount of soluble fiber. Focus on Beans, Oats, Yams, Barley that are not refined or processed.

It might be good to review the discussion on calorie density
http://www.drmcdougall.com/forums/viewt ... ie+density

I would also highly recommend you reading the following 2 articles on diabetes. You will see what high fat diets may show some short term benefit, but in the long term, they are problematic.

http://www.foodandhealth.com/cpecourses/insulin.php

http://www.foodandhealth.com/cpecourses ... abetes.php

Also, the only seeds that are high in EFAs are flax, chia and hemp. Most all the others are very high in 6 and very low in 3s.

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Postby JeffN » Mon Apr 07, 2008 8:54 am

geoffreylevens wrote: there is a lot of good research on both sides and both have a stable of “cured” diabetics (with normalized lab results) and each side can debunk the other’s research.

Long term, there are good stories about both diets and this post is not to debate the merits of either but I found doc's comment interesting now some tiny, possible corroborating evidence to back it up. Kind of like the Certs commercial….”Stop, you’re both right!”


Short term postprandial measures are not a good indicator of long term endocrine or overall health. Especially when switching from one dietary approach to another. The immediate results are interesting but not valid as the body has some compensatory mechanisms. What matters most is what happens over 3-6 months.

There are lots of stories about lots of diets and health regimes. Anyone can say anything. This is why anecdotal stories are interesting but not conclusive and why the standard for effectiveness is peer reviewed published studies. That is why I am not posting "stories."

I have been posting the data here at this site, as has Dr Mcd, on the evidence from peer reviewed and published studies in mainstream medical journals supporting the effectiveness of this approach in both short term and long term health

Can you provide the "good research" on the other side. If you don't have it, would you mind asking your alt health doc for them.

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Postby JeffN » Mon Apr 07, 2008 10:15 am

Thanks.

However, it doesnt meat the criteria.

The study is 83 subjects for 8 weeks. And, as I mentioned in our discussion, short term changes in insulin and BS are not what matters most. In addition, LDL and Hcy got much worse on the VLC diet and the minor change in HDL is irrelevant.

Quoting from the study...

Results

"LDL-C increased significantly only on VLCARB by 7% (p < 0.001 compared with the other diets)"

"Plasma homocysteine increased 6.6% only on VLCARB (P = 0.026). VLCARB lowered fasting insulin 33% compared to a 19% fall on HUF and no change on VLF (P < 0.001)"


I dont think trading a slight improvement in some numbers related to DB for an increased risk for CVD is a good idea.

Weston price did not support high fat diets but native ancestral unrefined unprocessed diets. However, the people who have taken over his name and organization do support high fat high sat fat diets, but their work is not supported by the evidence, or even Dr Prices original work.

I am looking for studies where diabetics were able to get off their medications and stay that way, as I have posted here for this approach. About 80% of the DBs get off their medication and stay that way which included 3 and 5 yr follow ups. In addition, they were also able to lower all the other values and risk factors for cancer, heart disease, hypertension.

geoffreylevens wrote:Our conversation was really in relation to diabetes and “pre-diabetes” insulin resistant people.


That is often known as metabolic syndrome. Over 50% of those with metabolic syndrome no longer could be diagnosed with it, in 14 days on this type of program. Also, if you read the 2 articles I posted, you will understand why higher fat, higher protein diets give some short term improvement in the numbers (as the article you posted showed) but do so at the expense of longterm health and other risk factors (as the article you posted indicated)

The best marker would be you and I still encourage you to do the experiment. Do this 100% for 3 months and report back and look at all your numbers, not just an isolated one of two.

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Postby JeffN » Mon Apr 07, 2008 10:55 am

geoffreylevens wrote: He did find healthy high fat eaters in his travels i.e. Masai tribe in Africa and Swiss dairy peasents in the Alps but I think he also found a lot of healthy high carb eaters as well. A big key is not eating the refined, processed non-foods that pass for much of the SAD.


The majority of the populations Dr Price found were "healthy" carb eaters which is all detailed in his book. And he found as they moved away from their "ground provisions" or "natural foods", which were mostly starch based, which is what most cultures around the world eat, and more to the refined processed foods, their health got worse.

The Masai, an African tribe that is one that lives on mostly Animal food, is an exception, and said to have "adapted" but they have a life expectancy in the late 40s also. They are also extremely active and fit runners, which would be the equivalent to very high levels of exercise and fitness here. In spite of the incredible fitness, it doesnt totally protect them.

Besdies, I think the Masai are a poor example and are often misrepresented as they do get heart disease and atherosclerosis also, even though they live short lives, and are extremely fit, so how good a diet can it be. They also have a life expectancy of around 50 even after accounting for infant mortality.

Is that really want we want as a example of health?

To use their diets (or another rare/isolated example) and emulate a very rare native population that is forced to eat a certain way due to poor environmental situations, and has one of the lowest life spans, as an example of what is healthy, would not be a good idea.

Quoting from...

Atherosclerosis in the Masai. Am J Epidemiol
95: 26–37, 1972.–

The hearts and aortae of 50 Masai men were collected
at autopsy. These pastoral people are exceptionally
active and fit and they consume diets of milk and
meat. The intake of animal fat exceeds that of
American men. Measurements of the aorta showed
extensive atherosclerosis with lipid infiltration
and
fibrous changes but very few complicated lesions. The
coronary arteries showed intimal thickening by
atherosclerosis which equaled that of old U.S. men.


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Postby JeffN » Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:17 am

geoffreylevens wrote:Your answer shows common problem. Due to lack of time or whatever I have never read Price's book and have merely been taking the word of second or even 3rd hand reporters (Enig and Fallon come to mind). All seem to have a serious ax to grind. Getting that related research about Masa athersclorosis is great.

Just received an email from a well meaning friend (diabetic now on greatly reduced meds from Bernsteins's low carb diet) concerned about long term effects of higher insulin production necessitated by eating high carb diet. He believes that increases risk of "beta cell burn-out". I have asked if he knows of any research to that effect.

Maybe I should get off the computer and read Prices' book. HAH! and eat some veggies...


published research shows insulin levels drop 40% on these programs when lbased on low fat high fiber unprocessed carbs.

Go Read!! ;)

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Postby JeffN » Mon Apr 07, 2008 4:15 pm

geoffreylevens wrote:This seeming conflict of info is what I am most interested in.

"published research shows insulin levels drop 40% on these programs when based on low fat high fiber unprocessed carbs"

I have not yet found the research you mention but would love to know if that 40% reduction in insulin refers to fasting insulin, post prandial insulin or some kind of running average blood level; or does it refer to need for injected insulin in diabetics?


Someone explained it above. It "all" has to do with the details of the diet. Think about it, what is the typical low fat high carb diet that most people follow? This is what they use in the studies. While it may be lower in fat, and higher in carb then many diets, it is always not the same as the diet recommended here. Two diffferent worlds.

We have some much info on fat that no one would ever talk about fat anymore without distinguishing the type of fat, ratio, etc etc. Yet after 30 years, we still lump all low fat high carb diets together, which is a travesty. Type of carb, amount of fiber (~20 vs >40), type of fiber (soluble vs insoluble) degree of fat reduction (< 30% to <15%), etc etc are all important issues which are never mentioned.

The 40% reduction of insulin was in type 2 diabetics who were on insulin and measured fasting insulin. (American Journal of Cardiology, 69: 440, 1992).

In just three weeks, oxidative stress , blood pressure, and cholesterol were all reduced by an average of 19%, andinsulin levels by 46%, significantly reducing their risk of heart disease and diabetes. (Circulation, 106: 2530, 2002)

Also, In a study of 652 Type 2 diabetics, 39% of those on insulin were insulin-free. 70% of diabetics on drugs were free of their medications in 21 days. (Diabetes Care, 17: 1469, 1994)

All this is explained in the 2 articles I linked you to.

:)


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Ezekiel Products

Postby vegkara » Tue Apr 08, 2008 11:48 am

I really suffer from hypoglycemia and sugar addiction. I love my carbs with intensity and I really find that I have to be careful with sweet stuff or problems will start.

What I have found that I love are Ezekiel products. You said that your favorite food is toast and I think a slice of Ezekiel Bread or half of one of their english muffins are wonderful. They are also a "complete protein" and are flourless. I am pretty sure they are McDougall approved.

Good luck.
~~Kara~~

"Eat Food. Not too much. Mostly plants." ~Michael Pollen
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Re: Ezekiel Products

Postby JeffN » Tue Apr 08, 2008 12:49 pm

vegkara wrote: They are also a "complete protein" and are flourless. I am pretty sure they are McDougall approved..


Ezekiel Bread is a great product.

And, I know you are repeating their comment from their label but, as this is a pet peeve of mine, I want to respond to "their" comment.

We do not have to worry about complete and incomplete proteins. All plant foods are "complete" proteins and contain all 8 of the essential amino acids. In fact, there is only one food that I know of that is not a complete protein and it is an animal food, and is gelatin.

Also, the flourless is a "technicality." The grains are still ground up and processed but because they are sprouted first, they are moist when ground up and so can not be ground into a fine flour. None the less, they are still ground up fairly well.

Thanks!

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Postby JeffN » Mon Apr 28, 2008 1:19 pm

geoffreylevens wrote:Jeff, I'm back...still concerned as yesterday I checked my sugar level a couple times and found I am still spiking very high after most meals. Example, last night dinner was pinto beans, baked yam w/ a couple rye crisp which I realize are "flour" but they are zero fat, low calorie, all carb about 35 calories each and I had 3. Blood sugar was in the high 180's in an hour. From all I have read, this is plenty more than high enough to do damage, both in terms of glycation and in terms of causing high insulin level.

Those occasional few rye crisp are the only thing I eat that is even questionable. For fruit I eat apples, the rest is barley, beans, collards, kale, cabbage, broccoli, sweet potatoes and a total of 4 tsp flax and 2 tsp pumpkin seed ground to satisfy my omega paranoia.

I have checked sugar levels only occasionally over last few weeks and find that except for plain, above ground only vegetables, pretty much all else makes my blood sugar skyrocket.

Just got back A1c test (took couple weeks with mail back and forth) and it was up considerably. In fairness, could be an artifact from first couple weeks off low carb/high fat transition to McDougall. Hard to say if higher number was from that or from continued high fat...

2/03 it was 5.4
12/07 after several low carb months it was 5.5
4/8 it was 6.2 This was after approximately 3-4 weeks on low fat/high carb diet.

I'd love any suggestions or reassurance you might offer

Many thanks
Geoffrey


Hi Geoffrey

While I understand your concern over your numbers, I would not be concerned with your numbers as a "response" to this program for several reasons....

Your experiment on this program is still very new and in addition, you were experimenting with different forms of it and also many different programs before coming here. And, to be honest, I am not sure exactly what you are doing either. :) There are many versions of the way people interpret this program and/or apply it. Some are much healthier than others.

This all matters. Some of these other diets you were on not to long ago may actually build insulin resistance in you and may take some time and commitment to reverse. This is why I would not take your A1c value as a representation of this program not working. BTW 6.2 is not a bad reading. Also, some people respond very quickly and some may take weeks. I also do not recommend the frequent post meal monitoring of blood sugar as in the beginning, this may be more indicative of the degree of IR you have, which would be from before, than your current individual response to a food/meal. We can change the food very quickly, but IR may take weeks if not months to go away. Once it does, the spikes will stop.

My recommendation is, if you want, is to do the MWL program 100% for at least 30-90 days. (Rye Krips, and other highly processed foods, would not be on the list.) As you seem to be more sensitive, focus more on veggies and raw foods with your meals. Track your blood sugars twice a day, as I outlined, stay active, and then we can see your A1c after 3 months. To further help, you may want to download the CRON-O-Meter and input all your food for this time. This would be more important to me, than your frequent post meal monitoring.

In addition, if you want, you may want to consider consulting with me privately so we can really fine tune what you are eating. Unfortunately, the forum is not the place to do this. If you were to choose to, I would want you to track your input in the CRON-O Meter for at least a week before we did.

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Re: Update

Postby JeffN » Sat May 24, 2008 10:30 pm

geoffreylevens wrote:Jeff, thanks again for all your encouragement and your patience in dishing up the information.


Your welcome.

And, thank you for sharing your experience here! :)

"Adherence" may be the most important issue there is.

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Jeff. Diabetic Information downloads...

Postby Clary » Sun May 25, 2008 7:59 am

JeffN wrote:I would also highly recommend you reading the following 2 articles on diabetes. You will see what high fat diets may show some short term benefit, but in the long term, they are problematic.

http://www.foodandhealth.com/cpecourses/insulin.php

http://www.foodandhealth.com/cpecourses ... abetes.php

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I'm grateful to you, Jeff, for providing the above information. Thank you very much.:nod:

Should the two links provide two different downloads? I get the same information at both links. I don't want to miss any of this . :)
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Postby JeffN » Sun May 25, 2008 8:07 am

The links look similar but they are different. One is for a 2 credit CPE course and one if for a 15 credit course on different, but similar topics.

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Postby Clary » Sun May 25, 2008 8:10 am

JeffN wrote:The links look similar but they are different. One is for a 2 credit CPE course and one if for a 15 credit course on different, but similar topics.

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OK. Thanks.
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Postby r-marie » Mon Jun 02, 2008 7:38 am

If you would like some background for this post, you may look at my intro post here:
http://www.drmcdougall.com/forums/viewt ... highlight=

Dear Geoffrey,
I am SO happy that you started this thread and that I found it. I can totally identify with your blood sugar spike anxiety as I’ve been doing the very same thing….taking a reading after every suspicious meal and freaking out when it says 180 or worse 200+. (this process is VERY addictive!) And like you I’ve been thinking how many spikes can my body take before harm is done!

I had been searching for information on this for over a year, including reading Dr. Bernard’s Diabetes Solution. It made a lot of sense but I knew I couldn’t eat that way. I love veggies, grains and fruit too much. But he said those were exactly the foods to avoid. Who to believe?

An email communication with Dr. McDougall about this still didn’t set my mind at ease enough to embrace the whole concept of a starch centered meal without meat or dairy. I had read somewhere that eating fat along with carbohydrates (especially fruit) slows the absorption of glucose, so I made sure to include full fat yogurt, butter, animal protein, eggs, cheese, olive oil, etc. when eating those foods in an effort to control the blood sugar. (didn't seem to help though)

My consistently high cholesterol of 250+ and LDL of 180 (But high HDL 60 and low Triglycerides of 50 or less) was not an issue with me as I had been a follower and member of westonapricefoundation.com for many years. Their insistance that cholesterol is not important – supported by the popular book “The Cholesterol Myth” by Uwe Ravnskov was all I needed. I even read that Cholesterol of 150 and under was a risk for stroke. (the exact number my husband had when he had a major stroke many years ago!!!).

But with my thyroid TSH, blood sugar and cholesterol rising, I wanted to do something different before I got into real trouble.

I also remembered reading about Ruth Heidrich, the 73 year old marathon runner and Ironman Triathalon winner, who had breast cancer some 20 years ago, got on the McDougall program and a vigorous exercise program and has been well ever since. So on May 20, I decided to follow the McDougall program.

The big problem (as you also mentioned) is losing too much weight. I started at 93 lbs (5ft tall) and just slipped under 90 this week. This greatly concerns me. I feel I need SOME fat on me for reserve. But I’ll leave this for another post. This is already way too long.

Please Geoffrey, update us on YOUR progress. I’ve enjoyed reading your posts – you have a way with words that’s delightful.

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