Moderators: JeffN, carolve, Heather McDougall
JeffN wrote:So, to sum up the above, in the end, these systems do little [than] help people choose better junk/convenience food.
Now, I know you may be thinking, but Doug's perspective, focus and approach is different. I agree. But, in the end, we have the same problem. This is verified by my personal experience working with 1000's of people over 2.5 decades. What happens with these systems is that people don't use them to eat more of the best or top categories (A, B) but end up spending most of their time and effort trying to find products that are C's and D's and even debating which is the best C or D or even whether something is really a C or a D or whether it should be an E or an F and why can't the product that is rated an E or an F be a C or a D if I only eat it once in while. And what percent of your diet can be C, D, E, F? When Doug gave this lecture the first time at the ASW, during the Q&A, Doug and John Mackey got into this very issue.
In the end, it [does] nothing to increase intake of A's & B's which is the real issue.
Unfortunately, due to human nature, as soon as we say, yeah, you can have that once in a while, the once in a while becomes very often. And if we say, yea, this cookie is (relatively) better than that cookie, it is heard as us blessing the better cookie. And, the biggest trap right now is that, oh, but it is vegan.
Recently, when asked about feast days in one his lectures at the 10-day program, Dr McDougall said, (paraphrasing), the problem with me saying you can have a few feast days is everyone starts having way too many of them.
I will give you more clarity (and detail) on my 3 levels in a later post in this thread, but if you know my video's or classes, you probably know them.
In Health
Jeff
PS Doug knows the above
MikeyG wrote:
Your comments above seem to correspond well with your three articles here, if anyone is interested:
1) "The Myth of Moderation Pt 3: Is Your Diet Exceptional? - Jeff Novick, MS, RDN"
http://www.jeffnovick.com/RD/Articles/E ... ional.html
2) "Hedge Your Health - Jeff Novick, MS, RD"
http://www.jeffnovick.com/RD/Articles/E ... alth!.html
3) "A Date With Disaster: The Pleasure Trap of Whole Natural Foods - Jeff Novick, MS, RD"
http://www.jeffnovick.com/RD/Articles/E ... Foods.html
I believe you have also commented elsewhere on the forums on our tendency to be less than moderate with our off-plan indiscretions, and I appreciate your thorough guidance.
I certainly look forward to your other insights, on these and other issues, whenever you can find the time to share them with the rest of us.
As you mentioned Dr. McDougall, here's one article he shared about the significant challenges of moderation, although in this case, he was referring to more blatantly unhealthy foods:
"Moderation Is Impossible for Passionate People"
https://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2006nl ... ration.htm
I hope that others find these resources as worthwhile as I have, and that they also utilize the wealth of information you provide to us on these boards, your website, and elsewhere on the internet.
Thank you for all that you have done and continue to do to produce such amazing resources and to share them with us for free. I look forward to continuing to support and promote your work, and I truly appreciate your dedication to the health of our community.
Please have a wonderful day.
JeffN wrote:I'll clarify my A, B and F levels next.
MikeyG wrote:More information about the Whole Foods Wellness Club tiering system, which it seems Jeff was involved in:
"UPDATE: Whole Foods, Health Starts Here, Wellness Clubs" [5/29/12]
viewtopic.php?p=297548#p297548
vgpedlr wrote:Helpinghands wrote:Aren't we talking about two different subjects?
Sort of.
You've got the rating systems for packaged food that some have put in place with red light, yellow light, and green light, or some numbering system.
That's what most of the thread is about. The mental martial arts people go through trying to find "lesser evils" results in wasted energy and plenty of "evil." This is both the macro-consumer level of conventional products and so-called "natural" healthy" and even vegan products. Ranking junk doesn't yield benefit, instead it takes away from the real issue which is replacing junk with health promoting foods.You then have systems that rate whole foods in categories. That system I believe was started by Dr. Ornish. An example would by broccoli being a one while nuts might be a five.
Similar mental martial arts happen at the other end of the spectrum, and that is not necessary either. People often expend too much energy trying to get the "best" produce possible, when it really doesn't matter. It's all good. Again, it is a distraction from the real issue, eliminating the F foods and eating more of the A and B foods. There are links already to topics like "How Much Kale to Reach Nirvana" that go further.
The same operation happens at both ends of the spectrum:
"Is this vegan cookie better/worse than that cracker?"
Doesn't matter, they both get an F.
"Is broccoli better/worse than kale?"
Doesn't matter, they both get an A.
Put down the cookies and stop rationalizing them, go to the produce section and stop worrying.
Don't overthink it.
PJK wrote:
... Dr McDougall says a starched-based diet with no animal products is the healthiest. But as I understand it, you're saying it's not about the meat.
Does this mean one could re-introduce meat into the McDougall diet and, assuming one continues all the other healthy behaviors (no smoking, exercise, no excessive alcohol), likely be just as healthy?
JeffN wrote:
The McDougall Program does not recommend the consumption of animal products (not just “meat”). Their consumption is "one" of the leading contributors of lifestyle related death and disease.
However, if you have not seen this, you may want to take a look at this McDougall Newsletter from 2009.
https://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2009nl/dec/nyr.htm
He rates the relative risk of foods and puts them in 4 categories. Category I are the worst foods that are called "dangerous foods," and not recommended to be consumed.
Category II are Feast Foods. They are broken up into 3 subcategories. Here they are.Dr. John McDougall wrote:
IIA. These foods should be eaten rarely, if ever. Never eat them if you are trying to regain your lost health and appearance. These are very rich foods. They should be reserved for that special occasion, the feast. For most healthy people, these feasts should occur less than once a month. Anyone still trying to regain the best possible level of health should always avoid feasts. Be forewarned: for some sensitive people, like those with inflammatory arthritis, one feast can result in devastating pains lasting for weeks.
1. Range-fed beef without hormones or chemicals.
2. Organically grown poultry.
3. Shellfish.
4. Fresh fish.
5. Cream.
6. Whole milk.
7. Cheese.
8. Creamed cottage cheese.
9. Sour cream.
10. Ice Cream.
11. Yogurt.
12. Butter.
13. Eggs.
14. Vegetable oils (including olive oil, flaxseed oil, canola oil, coconut, and all "free" oils).
IIB. These modified feast foods should be eaten no more than once a week, and then only in small amounts. Anyone looking for improvement in their health should never eat them. These dairy and egg foods have been modified to lower the fat and cholesterol content. Removal of the fat reduces the level of fat-soluble chemical contaminants. However, they are still too high in animal protein, and contain no dietary fiber. Dairy products are the leading cause of food allergies, and eggs are often listed as the second most common food allergen.
1. Low-fat yogurt.
2. Low-fat milk (skim milk).
3. Buttermilk.
4. Low-fat (dry curd) cottage cheese.
5. Low-fat cheese (like mozzarella).
6. Kefir.
7. Sherbet (contains water, sugar, fruit juice, and often egg whites or low-fat dairy products).
8. Egg whites.
Category IV are Health-Supporting Foods
These foods are health-supporting. They allow your body to attain and maintain its naturally intended state of good health. They should account for the greatest share (at least 90 percent) of your calories if you are healthy and for all of them if you are still working to regain your health.
1. Whole grains, such as wheat, rice, barley, millet, rye, oats, corn, and popcorn
2. Milled grains, such as whole-wheat flour, corn meal, brown rice flour, rye flour, oatmeal, and bulgur.
3. Starchy vegetables, such as white potatoes, sweet potatoes, yams, and cassava.
4. Green and yellow vegetables, such as spinach, kale, zucchini, broccoli, cabbage, carrots, and onions.
5. Sprouted seeds and beans, such as alfalfa, radish, wheat, mung bean, and lentil.
6. Beans, peas, lentils, such as kidney beans, white beans, garbanzo beans, pinto beans, split peas, and red lentils. (These legumes are high-protein. They should be restricted to about one cup of cooked food on average daily and restricted even more for people with osteoporosis, kidney stones, and liver or kidney failure.)
7. Fresh fruits. (All edible varieties of these are suitable; however, most people should limit them to about three per day. They contain simple sugars that are largely protected by fiber. People trying to lose weight and people with high triglycerides should consider further limitation.)
For health reasons, I know of no evidence that 100% animal product free is necessary. The original diets shown to reverse heart disease (Ornish, Pritikin, Gould, Esselstyn), were not vegan. Much of the related research on a WFPB diet (Kempner, Shintani, CHIP, 7th Day Adventists), was not done on vegans.
However, we are not recommending them. The reason is, as discussed in other threads, there are several additional compelling reasons not to consume them, including animal welfare, environmental, contamination, the pleasure trap, etc.
Dr McDougall states this in the above newsletter. Towards the end, he says...Dr. John McDougall wrote:
Ten Ideas We Have Improved On in Three Decades:
You should not be surprised to learn that we got it mostly right the first time -- more than 30 years ago. After six years of exhaustive study of the scientific research and almost every vegetarian cookbook published in the preceding eighty years we learned a lot from other people's hard work. During those six years between 1977 and 1983 when The McDougall Plan was being written, Mary also designed homey recipes, cooked the meals, and the McDougall family taste-tested each and every one of them. Here is what we can now add:
1) Animal foods -- be they derived from cow, pig, chicken, or fish muscles or the ovum of a bird or the lactation fluids of a mammal -- high-fat or low-fat -- are all so similar in their make-up that they must be considered together, and should be strictly avoided for health reasons. The destruction of the Earth due to the livestock industry makes avoiding animal foods imperative.
2) Chicken and Turkey are no improvement over beef and pork products. Consumers are just fooling themselves and might as well have a beefsteak on their birthday rather than a dried-up piece of white breast meat.
3) Fish are health-wise no better than any of the other muscle foods. Since the time The McDougall Plan was written nearly 90% of the world's large fish and other sea life have vanished. In order to restore our oceans, lakes, and streams people must understand the importance of not eating and further contributing to the depletion of these natural resources.
4) Low-fat Dairy Products and Egg Whites are very high in animal protein and sulfur-containing amino acids, which promote bone, kidney and liver damage. Trading high-fat foods for low-fat foods in this category is a matter of choosing whether to be shot or hanged.
5) Soy Foods, such as traditional soymilk, tofu and miso are sensible additions to a healthy diet, but should be used in small amounts because they are rich in fat and protein. Fake foods, such as soy burgers, soy luncheon meats, soy hot dogs, and soy cheeses made from isolated soy proteins and a number of other chemicals should be strictly avoided.
6) Vegetable Oils, regardless of the health claims, such as "high in omega-3s" or "good fats" are serious health hazards and should be clearly distinguished from whole foods that are high in vegetable fats such as nuts, seeds, avocados, and olives.
7) Salt is a pleasurable taste that can make compliance with the McDougall Diet much easier. Research over the past three decades shows salt is well tolerated by most people and rarely is a contributor to poor health. However, to be on the cautious side, use salt sparingly.
8 ) Simple Sugars are all basically the same and make foods delicious. Used sparingly they add great pleasure to the McDougall Diet without causing harm.
9) A Starch Focus is emphasized in every possible way. The McDougall Diet has always been taught as a starch-based diet with the addition of fresh or frozen vegetables and fruits. Until people eat most of their calories from higher calorie plant foods, such as rice, corn, beans, and potatoes, they struggle. Emphasizing these comfort foods makes everything about the McDougall Program work easily.
10) Simplicity in meals is a key to better health and appearance. Mary's cooking style in our home has become focused on simple meals. She prepares dishes such as sweet potatoes and broccoli or rice with steamed green veggies, which are topped with delicious sauces. With simplicity, advantages like greater weight loss, better health, and lower food costs are enjoyed.
[mikeyg: As the quoted discussion with Jeff had started the context of animal products, Jeff had originally only included #1 and #3 of the ten additional improvements from the original McDougall Plan. I have included the others as I think that they further emphasize the shared perspective of McDougall and Novick on the relative harms of certain foods and how we can best consider their proper roles in our dietary patterns .]
I don't think there is anything I have said in this forum that disagrees with the above. In fact, I am stricter then the above as I ask people to get at least 95% right, not 90%
In Health
Jeff
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