Blood sugar levels still high. Why???

[lakeside60]

My husband and I have been following the McDougall program for about 5 weeks now. No meat or dairy, mainly starch/plant based diet. We both feel great. He lost 15 lbs. in his first week and got a lot of energy. He looks and feels great. But today we took his blood glucose levels and it registered 411! That floored both of us. He is off his meds, feels great so why aren't his sugar levels going down? They were at 245 when he was diagnosed with Type 2 diabetes. Now its almost doubled! Are we doing something wrong? Is there a specific time of day to take it (but even so, would it make that much difference?)
Would appreciate any response that would make sense of this.

[Idgie]

Maybe he still needs his meds. He should talk to his doctor! Some people need more time to recover from chronic illness even if they're eating well.

[Lyndzie]

The two factors I’ve seen time and again are time and adherence. Maybe he needs more time, but also maybe there is a misunderstanding of the concepts, so there is some room for improvement. Generally, following the MWL program will get results the fastest.

It’s also impossible to give specific ideas with such little information. What is he eating, exactly? Did his doctor say it was ok to quit medication? There is a specific time of day to take measurements, what did his doctor advise?

[openmind]

If blood sugar spike re a concern, try decreasing the calorie density of meals getting closer to MWL than regular McDougall. With my wife, the favorite method is a giant potato vegetable soup, easy to make and very filling, that results in lower blood sugars for her.

[lakeside60]

I don't know what MWL means. We have been eating a vegan starch based diet. Mainly water for hydration and very little fruit. He stopped his medication when we started this in January. He felt horrible on meds. His feet hurt, he couldn't sleep and he felt lethargic around 10 in the morning after havin a big breakfast. Now he feels great, lost 15 lbs., has tons of energy and sleeps good. I have an appointment with his doctor but I'm afraid he'll just put him back on the meds. I wish I could send him off to California to be evaluated by Dr. McDougall himself but we are business owners and can't get away. Does this take more time maybe? I know we're not going to give up because this is a lifestyle now. But I thought the results would be better by now.

[Lyndzie]

MWL = Maximum Weight Loss. Dr. McDougall put together some guidelines to help people lose weight a little faster, which is also recommended for people who are trying to reverse disease quickly. Here are the guidelines.

Short version: avoid flour products (bread, etc) and high fat foods (nuts, avocado, etc). Limit fruit to 2 servings a day. NO OIL. Load up on the plants, eating a plate of half starch and half veggies.

I am by no means a medical professional, and do not know the risks involved with having blood sugar that high, but medicine, even with side effects, may outweigh the risks.

[openmind]

I don't know what MWL means. We have been eating a vegan starch based diet. Mainly water for hydration and very little fruit. He stopped his medication when we started this in January. He felt horrible on meds. His feet hurt, he couldn't sleep and he felt lethargic around 10 in the morning after havin a big breakfast. Now he feels great, lost 15 lbs., has tons of energy and sleeps good. I have an appointment with his doctor but I'm afraid he'll just put him back on the meds. I wish I could send him off to California to be evaluated by Dr. McDougall himself but we are business owners and can't get away. Does this take more time maybe? I know we're not going to give up because this is a lifestyle now. But I thought the results would be better by now.

Apologies, I should have been a bit more clear. MWL stands for Dr. McDougall's Maximum Weight Loss program. You can find more details about MWL here https://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2005nl/050100pupushing.htm, but suffice to say that under MWL your husband will eat mostly unrefined starches (like potatoes and brown rice) and the plate will visually change to about 50-50 starches vs. non-starchy vegetables. Effectively, he'll be ingesting less calories and less carbs without doing any carb counting.

The McDougal plan IS the healthiest diet on the planet, but diabetics have this worry factor about short-term blood sugar spikes, and doctors DO put pressure on their patients to keep the blood sugar to some arbitrary numbers (like an A1C of 8.0), so in order to keep this worry factor under control and the doctors at bay while his body is still healing, your husband should seriously consider Dr. McDougall's Maximum Weight Loss for the short-term.

P.S. My wife has also found intermittent fasting,which is not part of the McDougall program per se, can also help mitigate those short-term blood sugar spikes.

[Wonderbugg]

Just a thought, but are you still eating oils?

[lakeside60]

Open mind, I cannot send private messages yet on this. We had our doctor put my husband back on Metphormin (only half of his last dosage, he knows and applauds our new eating habits). We just took his blood glucose and it is 511. Doctor wants us to take it two hours after each meal for a few days. I know my husband is freaked out about this. He was feeling great until we took the damn glucose levels. Now he is feeling dizzy and needing food. I know its in his head now but the damage is done. What did you do with your wife and how long did it take?

And no, we are not ingesting any oils (not on purpose anyway).

[openmind]

Open mind, I cannot send private messages yet on this. We had our doctor put my husband back on Metphormin (only half of his last dosage, he knows and applauds our new eating habits). We just took his blood glucose and it is 511. Doctor wants us to take it two hours after each meal for a few days. I know my husband is freaked out about this. He was feeling great until we took the damn glucose levels. Now he is feeling dizzy and needing food. I know its in his head now but the damage is done. What did you do with your wife and how long did it take?

And no, we are not ingesting any oils (not on purpose anyway).

Basically we have done Maximum Weight Loss as I noted above, but also intermittent fasting, which can be as simple and easy as skipping breakfast.

We also found boiled potatoes does not raise my wife's blood sugar very much. That's why we use soup with potatoes as the starch most often.

[Poison Ivy]

Lakeside, how long has he been a type 2? How old is he and how much does he currently weigh? It may take awhile for things to settle before you see some improvement. I know this must be discouraging but give the diet a chance before throwing in the towel. Like Lyndzie said, he may need the meds for now while he is eating the diet and being monitored, IDK!

[Atheria]

On another program's board that is very similar to McDougall (plant based, very low fat, real food) that's geared toward diabetics, some people do report that it took their bodies A LONG time to heal from insulin resistance. I'm talking 1-2 years. But, now they can eat potatoes and such without issues.

Best wishes,
Atheria

[landog]

Scroll down to: And here are the recommendations..
https://www.drmcdougall.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9455

Heck, I'll do it for you!
Per Jeff Novick in the thread listed above:

-Follow an unrefined, unprocessed, high carbohydrate, lower fat, very high fiber, and plant based diet for weight loss and for better health. Such a diet is based on fresh fruits, fresh vegetables, “intact” whole grains, starchy vegetables and legumes. It is not only very healthy; it is also very effective for weight loss, diabetes and heart disease. It is low in calorie density so you can fill up without overeating and not worry about being hungry. In addition, it is very high in nutrient density, so you will be optimizing your nutrient intake at the same time.

-Do not be afraid of carbohydrates but understand that all carbohydrates are NOT EQUAL. Forget the GI/GL or whether they are complex or simple. That is all too complex. Instead, choose carbohydrates that are intact, unrefined and unprocessed. Period. Choose whole kernel corn over corn flakes or corn chips. Choose brown rice over white rice or rice crackers.

-Aim for a fiber intake of at least 50 grams a day from whole foods. If it makes it easier, focus on getting at least 17 grams of fiber at each meal, based on 3 meals a day. If you follow the diet recommended above, this will be easy.

-While increasing fiber, focus on the foods that tend to be higher in soluble fiber for improved blood sugar, insulin sensitivity and lipid levels. These foods are beans, yams, oats, barley and berries. These foods are easy to remember by using the acronym BYOB & B. (We give new meaning to life’s acronyms!) (Beans are the best for this)

-Do not be misled by diets, food choices, or packaged products that are recommended for weight loss, diabetes, heart disease and/or cancer based on the glycemic index or the glycemic load. The GI and the GL is not only extremely confusing, but they are also misleading and have little if any benefit to you. It is much simpler to just choose foods based on the principles I described above.

I will add in...

- be active for at least 45-60 minutes, 5-6 days a week.

...

At the last center I worked, in 10 years I saw over 25K people with about 2/3 to 3/4s of them with diabetes. About 80% on average, were able to get off their medications in about 2 weeks. Most of them were able to eventually achieve "normal" fasting levels, in the range of 70-100, with many between 70-90. This work is published in several major medical journals.

[landog]

I wish I could send him off to California to be evaluated by Dr. McDougall himself but we are business owners and can't get away.

If I were you, I would message Jeff Novick and see if you can arrange a phone consult.

[Poison Ivy]

On another program's board that is very similar to McDougall (plant based, very low fat, real food) that's geared toward diabetics, some people do report that it took their bodies A LONG time to heal from insulin resistance. I'm talking 1-2 years. But, now they can eat potatoes and such without issues.

Best wishes,
Atheria

Thanks Atheria....do you have that link?