Psoriatic Arthritis Journal - 2.5 year Update Page 63

[nicoles]

I really like Katydid's response to the issue in my last post on this thread:

I agree with the OP. I have become increasing disheartened with the decent of this board in recent weeks into what I can only describe as tribalism. While I may not agree with everything Drs. Fuhrman, Greger, and Ornish support, I do believe that they are men of good intent. ALL scientists are guilty of picking and choosing the data that support their beliefs. That doesn't make them bad men. As a scientist myself, I know how easy it is to promote the data that supports one's own work, and ignore the data that doesn't.

Dr. McDougall has plenty of evidence that supports his beliefs on the effectiveness of a low-starch diet to reverse disease. I happen to agree with it. But I also know there is plenty of good data that doesn't support his beliefs. You can even see some of it presented at the ASW meetings. Even members of his own team disagree about things like salt and white sugar. And that's OK. It's how science works.

It seems to me that the number of doctors who support a whole-food plant-based diet are so small we do ourselves a diservice by picking apart every argument on whether or not to eat nuts or whether a cup of black beans is better of you than a white potato.

And frankly, the animals don't care if you are a vegan for ethical or health reasons. As long as you aren't eating them its all good.

I recommend people use the 'red exclamation point' button to send a signal when they think a discussion has veered off into infighting and personal attacks. This will let the moderators know someone has gone over the line and perhaps we can return supporting ourselves instead of running others down.

Kate

[nicoles]

And while I am going over all the things I am thinking about...

This article and many others on the Caloric Restricion Studies in Monkeys that were compared seem to indicate that the comparison itself was flawed - the CR monkeys were eating basically a junk food, high-sugar diet, not what is a "natural" monkey diet, and yet still showed health benefits if not longevity, while the well-fed monkeys in the other study group were fed a healthier diet, and all the good plant chemicals were perhaps helping them to live longer.

But in a long-awaited, well-funded monkey study like this, an “odd” result could not be ignored. Still stranger was the fact that even though the underfed monkeys were healthier than the others, they still didn’t live longer. They had lower incidence of cardiovascular disease, as well as diabetes and cancer—and when these diseases did appear, they did so later. “To me I think it’s one of our very interesting findings,” says lead author Rafael de Cabo. “We can have a dramatic effect on healthspan [the length of healthy life] without improving survival.”


Even odder was the fact that the NIA’s control monkeys seemed to be doing much better than the Wisconsin controls. In fact, the NIA controls seemed to be on track to live as long, or longer, than the Wisconsin calorie-restricted monkeys. Some of them were approaching 40 years old, previously the highest recorded age for Rhesus monkeys. (Four of the NIA monkeys have actually surpassed 40 at this writing.) What was that about?


At first, it seemed like a scientist’s nightmare: The control group is indistinguishable from the test group. In clinical trials, a result like this would kill any drug candidate. Then de Cabo took a closer look at a seemingly minor difference between the Wisconsin and NIA studies: the animals’ diets.


De Cabo is attuned to food. A native Spaniard who’s reputed to make some of the best paella this side of Cadiz, he would seem an unlikely advocate for caloric restriction. “I love to cook,” he says. “Would I like to practice caloric restriction? I don’t think so.”

It didn’t take him long to realize that the animals’ food was more important than anyone had thought. The NIA monkeys were fed a natural-ingredient diet, made from ground wheat, ground corn, and other whole foods; the Wisconsin animals ate a “purified” diet, a heavily refined type of food that allowed the researchers to control the nutritional content more precisely. Because the NIA monkeys were eating more natural ingredients, de Cabo realized, they were taking in more polyphenols, micronutrients, flavonoids, and other compounds that may have health-promoting effects.


Furthermore, the NIA diet consisted of 4 percent sucrose—while in the Wisconsin diet, sucrose accounted for some 28 percent of the total calories. High sugar consumption is thought to be a primary driver of obesity, diabetes, and possibly some cancers. “In physics, a calorie is a calorie,” says de Cabo. “In nutrition and animal physiology, there is more and more data coming out that says that the state of the animal is going to depend more on where the calories are coming from.”

In other words, it matters whether you eat at Whole Foods, like the suburban-Maryland NIA monkeys—or at the ballpark, like the Wisconsin monkeys. Guess which works out better in the end?

(Highlights are mine)

Health benefits are what I am aiming for. Back to the CR drawing board!

On the other hand, this thread in Jeff Novick's Forum seems to indicate that we are already on a calorically restricted diet eating this way.

What is most amazing is that T Shintani, MD showed in his 2 studies that when a person goes from the typical American diet to an "ad lib" (all you can eat) version of a diet just like the McDougall Diet, that due to the change in calorie density, they can eat all they want and their calorie intake would automatically be reduced by "up to" 40% which will naturally lower their body weight and give them all the benefits discussed below without ever having to go hungry. Here are the Shintani studies.

So....it's a win, either way,I guess

[moonwatcher]

Very interesting! Thanks, nicoles--sure sounds like a win-win to me, too.

moonwatcher

[lmggallagher]

Hey Nicole & Moonwatcher:

Good insights on this whole issue of gurus - some real (maybe)! I don't know why but Fuhrman has always put me off. I read one of his books and listened to his lectures from time to time - but the profit motive seems really big to him. He also shows an obsessive (IMHO) interest in longevity - which I know is not our thing! Finally, the whole diet is compulsive and hard to follow I think - I tried was not satiated - I dropped in less then a New York city minute. The only reason I tried was some friends were insistent - they tend to fads - I tend to find something that works for me.

The deal with the ground flax seed is Campbell's too - I go with a few teaspoons on my oatmeal, as he suggests:) He is the real nutrition guy, I know this because he says of all the Doc's McDougall has the nutrition most right! That's how I come to be here

[moonwatcher]

I didn't know Dr. Campbell said that about Dr. McDougall, Michelle--cool!

moonwatcher

[nicoles]

I did not know he said that about Dr M either, Michelle! Very interesting. I was happy to read Dr M's newsletter about the whole situation today.


This past weekend was a long weekend, away from town and relaxing - back home now. NOt much to report. Took a two day break from meditation, but kept the exercise.

My weight-bearing ability has increased!

My cardio endurance has increased

I have a few aches and pains that seem like normal "I did a lot of exercise" ones, but with PsA who knows

Happy Tuesday, All!

[moonwatcher]

hi nicoles,

so great about your weight bearing and cardio endurance increasing! And here's to your soreness remaining the "I did a lot of exercise" kind, and receding in exactly that fashion.

I was happy to read Dr. M's newsletter about the whole situation, too.

Welcome back.

moonwatcher

[nicoles]

Hi Moonwatcher Yes, Dr McD, gotta like his style!

Fasting since yesterday, or technically since Monday night at 5:30 p.m.
My aim is to go until either tonight, tomorrow night, or Thursday morning, depending on how I feel. So far, so good. More energy than during all previous fasts, and no dizziness yet. Takin' it easy, just to be sure.

Anyway, saw this link and thought I'd share it with the world of "Starchers."

It is just the kind of book I love to read.

Hope all are well this week!

[nicoles]

One thing of note: after meditating pretty regularly since I did my last fast, I can notice the mental benefits. Fortitude, maybe, is how I'd describe it. I am willing to let the waves of...whatever...pass. Especially the anxiety about "not being productive" during a fast.

[moonwatcher]

HI Nicoles,

Thanks for the link. Looks interesting. I'm in a whole other reading planet right now. Dr. Zhivago. Never read the book. I'm going just a few pages at a time in between pears, blackberries, mushrooms, and having to buy a new washer and dryer. It is an astoundingly beautiful book, even more to it than the movie, which I've always loved.

Good for you that your fast is going so well. I've yet to try that, except for the 12 hours before a blood test. I've done remarkably well with that, so who knows, maybe some day. Sometimes I think of extending it, but Romeo and I walk down there in the morning and by the time I get home from all that I'm ready to eat something. Maybe some day. Maybe not.

Great that you can see how your meditating has helped you. Fortitude. A good quality to find in bloom in your life. All nice to hear.

moonwatcher

[nicoles]

Hello, Moonwatcher, dear friend!

I have never read Dr Zhivago, though I'd like to. I recently discovered a whole new appreciation for Henry James (apropos of things never read) when reading Portrait of a Lady - it was far beyond me when I tried to get through it in High School - gave it another shot and whoa, was I blown away!

re: fasting for 12 hours. Is that overnight fasting you meant?

Fasting days 1 and 2

For whatever reason, the first 24 hours of a fast is a total breeze for me (my overeating problems occur when I am ALREADY eating and do not want to stop, typically) and I have normal energy, etc all day long.

Day 2 I am usually pretty tired, and if not dizzy, physically very weak.

Ah well. Is olc an ghaoth nach séideann do dhuine éigin.

Fasting,Day 3

Today is when the fun of the fast kicks in. Apparently, after 48 hours in women and 72 hours in men, the body goes from burning muscle for fuel to burning fat stores and a much lower percentage of muscle. This is when the "clearing out" can really amp up and for me, this is when I start to feel REALLY clear-headed. Not super energetic, but mentally doing gymnastics. S'fun!

Meditation

This fast, I decided I would meditate, no matter what. The first day I sat 20 minutes am and pm and had plenty of energy for sitting, physically, but not much mental focus.

But once you are really in Day 2 and onward of fasting, sitting up takes a lot of energy, so I was not sure what to do. I learned zen-style mediation in seiza posture, which is really hard to do physically, while fasting.

So I looked around and found an acceptable alternative posture - lying down with knees bent and feet on floor. Pillow under head if necessary. I did that instead.

In my search for posture, I came across another tool for breath-attention than the one I have been using (counting the out breaths from 1-10, then starting over.)

This method involves counting the in breaths from 1-10, then counting the in breaths from 10-1 (or, 1-10 backwards,) then counting the OUT breaths from 1-10, then counting the out breaths from 10-1. And starting all over again. This really helped me concentrate a lot better, perhaps because I am so new to this and have a really active monkey-mind.
So I managed 30 minutes in one "sit" yesterday, and 15 minutes this morning. Plan to meditate again in the evening.


In my first official meditation class, the teacher mentioned that he led a group of prison inmates in mediation regularly and that the guys in prison were, as he put it, "rocks." I was impressed that someone in such a place, with so many unpleasant things surrounding them, and unpleasant things to come face-to-face with in their own lives, self and actions, could meditate.

Yesterday I found this documentary, called The Dhamma Brothers, about prison inmates in Alabama meditating in vipassana meditation. Worth a watch if you are interested. It is free on Netflix streaming and on Hulu.

[moonwatcher]

Hi dear nicoles,

Cool you are doing so well with the fasting. Yes, I meant from 8 at night until an 8:15 appointment for blood draw. But actually a bit longer since I didn't eat until I got back. I've done that a few times no problem. But nothing like what you are living right now.

I am definitely going to watch that movie you recommended when the harvest slows down and the weather turns. It sounds fascinating. I think I'll bookmark it now.

moonwatcher

ps Haven't read Portrait of a Lady, but read The Golden Bowl. Friends who knew James said it was like all of his books in one, so to read it was to read them all. I was blown away, too. So much happening in the mind while the body barely begins to turn to cross a room. Loved it. Maybe I'll read Portrait of a Lady some day too. You've put it on that invisible mental list.

[nicoles]

Hi Moonwatcher

You know, fasting longer is not much different than the 8.5 hours, except that you get a little weaker and a little bored. I know it sounds like a major deal, and it would be if I tried to do all normal stuff when I do it (at least after the first 24 hours, that is) but it is not that hard. each one gets easier and easier. It's fascinating. I'd definitely say that the first short fast anyone does would not be a standard for how to expect subsequent fasts to go.

The Dhamma Brothers was well worth watching, I hope you enjoy it when you get a chance. I haven't read the Golden Bowl, but I am looking forward to adding it to my list.

Post Fasting

This past fast I never really got hungry, so when I started to eat I did not feel ravenous or particularly enamored of food, at least not more than normal.

Taking this time to really work on eating only as much as I need to be satisfied, but not stuffed. So far, pretty good. My new technique is to eat meals at mealtimes, instead of waiting to feel hungry before I eat, and taking care not to overeat at each meal. I think I was getting too much into a deprivation mentality when I was awaiting for hunger and that was tripping me up.


Happily, I am bouncing back into regular life much more quickly after this fast than ever before. So things have been pretty normal.

Meditation.

Been doing about 15 minutes each am since the fast, and about 20 each pm. Using the more complicated breath counting method has helped my concentration a lot.

Exercise

Since I don't jump right into exercise until the week after the fast is over, I have been really diligent about stretching and gentle yoga, am and pm. It feels great!

Been walking at least 1-2 miles per day as well, including on the day I broke the fast! Which was because my husband came home sick and I needed to get food, but he had left the car at work and got a ride home he was so sick. So I had to walk to the store. Took forever, but I did it!

He is OK now.

[nicoles]

Grrr. Father-in-law is having chest pains, is not interested in diet change, at least not yet. Has a stress test Friday. Has been happening regularly, only got "bad enough" to tell us now. (Because he *knows* what we'll say, I am sure.)

He wanted out of the conversation bad enough that right after he told his son, My DH, and DH started talking about diet change he suddenly said, "Gotta go, another call coming in." and never called back.


We are gonna watch FOK with them this weekend or next. Gotta be done.


ARRRGGGHHH! It is almost worse to HAVE the answer, yet people you love won't listen!!!

[moonwatcher]

First of all, sorry to hear about your FIL.

I can really relate to how you are feeling, nicoles. I feel similarly often. I have a dear friend who had surgery for prostate cancer a couple of years ago and now has autoimmune complications that have worsened his arthritis, bloomed into polymyalgia, etc. He dabbles in this. His wife is not really on board either. They are great people, I love them dearly. They eat healthy, not SAD, but won't go this "extreme." He borrowed Forks Over Knives, kept if for months, then returned it when another younger friend wanted to borrow it, not having watched it. A nurse friend of theirs, unknown to me also told them to watch it. But not yet. People where I live are really into eggs and dairy and meat being okay if you grow it yourself, process it yourself, kill it yourself. (This sensibility caused me considerable prickly complications as I was wading my way through it over the years to this WOE.) I think people avoid watching because they know deep down once they do, everything is going to change. That's happened to a few people I know who were willing to watch it and I'm glad it has--for them. My sister changed after watching it (she needs to as well, she has a lot of weight to lose, pain syndromes, high cholesterol, though no "visible" heart disease or diabetes yet), but has backed away and eats too much fat and processed stuff. And is an addict who should probably stop drinking too. And having to take pain meds. But oh well. She tells me she taking baby steps. Okay. She tells me she has to make up her own mind, and can't be doing it because I'm doing it. Okay. But it's not about sibling rivalry, it's about saving your damn life. I don't say that, it wouldn't work (or i'm a lot nicer if I get close to that). I just say okay, it's up to you. But it sure breaks my heart the things people tell themselves to keep from really giving it a fair chance. Well, goodness, I guess I needed to vent!!

cheers,

moonwatcher