Fruitarianism??

[TomE]

I believe I have devised a fruitarian diet (65% botanical fruit) that may be superior to the sweet potato diet. I'd like for you to comment on it, and your feelings about fruitarianism in general.

This diet is very low fat, calorie restricted, omnivorous, and supplies ALL the vitamins and minerals according to the Cron-o-Meter. And it really is an easy diet to follow. Here are the general parameters:

Total Vitamins: 92%
Total Minerals: 94%

Calories: 1703
Protein: 65g (12%)
Carbs: 383g (84%)
Fat: 8g (5%)
Fiber: 54.2g
Sat Fat: 2.5g (1.3%)
Omega 6/3 ratio: (2:1)
Animal Product: 5.1%

Here is the diet:

--------------------------
*4 cups Pomegranate Juice
*4 cups Tomato juice, canned, without salt added
*3 Bananas, raw medium (7" to 7-7/8" long)

1.3 cups Spinach, cooked, boiled, drained, without salt
1.2 cup Mushrooms, portabella, raw diced
1 1/2 cups Cabbage, cooked, boiled, drained, without salt
1 Potato, boiled, cooked without skin, flesh, without salt small (1-3/4" to 2-1/2" dia.)
1/2 cup Corn, sweet, yellow, raw
1 cup Collards, cooked, boiled, drained, without salt, chopped
1 cup Kale, cooked, boiled, drained, without salt
1 1/2 cup Broccoli, cooked, boiled, drained, without salt, chopped
10 Carrots, baby, raw medium

1.5 oz Beef, top sirloin, separable lean only, trimmed to 0" fat, select, cooked, broiled
11g Chicken, liver, all classes, raw

0.05 (one twentiesth cup) Beans, adzuki, mature seeds, cooked, boiled, without salt
---------------------------
*botanical fruit, would be allowed by most fruitarians

Advantages:

1 Contains a small amount of animal protien, just like the Okinawans, who are the longest lived people in the world!
2 Contains 1218 IU of Vitamin A (retinoic acid) something your sweet potato diet completely lacks and some poeple do need.
3 Zinc from less phytate rich sources, allowing for greater bioavailability
4 Conatins 104% of RDA for vitamin B12, something the sweet potato diet completely lacks.

All that from a fruitarian diet!!!

I'm prepared to defend the inclusion of 4 small glasses of fruit juice within the context of this diet and the menu plan below...

[TomE]

Here's my detailed menu below, which I thought would be helpful to show how easy this is to follow:

Breakfast 8 am:

8 oz Pomegranate Juice
1 1/2 banana

Lunch: 12:30 pm:

6 oz Pomegranate Juice
1.3 cups Spinach, cooked, boiled, drained, without salt
1.2 cup Mushrooms, portabella, raw diced

Early dinner 5:30 pm:

6 oz Pomegranate Juice

Vegetable/beef soup made with:
4 cups Tomato juice, canned, without salt added
1.5 oz Beef, top sirloin, separable lean only, trimmed to 0" fat, select, cooked, broiled
11g Chicken, liver, all classes, raw
10 Carrots, baby, raw medium
1 1/2 cups Cabbage, cooked, boiled, drained, without salt
1 Potato, boiled, cooked without skin, flesh, without salt small (1-3/4" to 2-1/2" dia.)
1/2 cup Corn, sweet, yellow, raw
0.05 cup Beans, adzuki, mature seeds, cooked, boiled, without salt
- as well as worschester sauce, chili powder and bay leaves

Late dinner 8 p.m.

6 oz Pomegranate Juice
1 cup Collards, cooked, boiled, drained, without salt, chopped
1 cup Kale, cooked, boiled, drained, without salt
1 1/2 cup Broccoli, cooked, boiled, drained, without salt, chopped


Late night snack 10:30 p.m.

6 oz Pomegranate Juice
1 1/2 banana

[Buffy]

Contains 1218 IU of Vitamin A (retinoic acid) something your sweet potato diet completely lacks

I've just checked the USDA Nutrient Database and 100 grams of baked sweet potato contains 19218 IU of Vitamin A and the same amount of boiled sweet potato has 15740 IU of Vitamin A. So the sweet potato diet devised by Jeff would definitely have adequate Vitamin A.

[JeffN]

I'm prepared to defend the inclusion of 4 small glasses of fruit juice within the context of this diet and the menu plan below...

Please re-read my response to your post on the pomegranate juice. You will see, this may not be a good thing.

In addition, I do not know your point in trying to prove this can be done as a "fruitarian" diet.

Advantages:
1 Contains a small amount of animal protien, just like the Okinawans, who are the longest lived people in the world!

This is not an advantage. This is an exception. They got away with it, and had to do to environmental and geographical issues of their time. This is like saying drinking blood is an "advantage" because the Masai do it or eating whale blubber is an "advantage" because the Inuits do it. We need common denominators, not exceptions.

2 Contains 1218 IU of Vitamin A (retinoic acid) something your sweet potato diet completely lacks and some people do need.

The form of Vit A in plant foods is the safest and healthiest form possible, which is beta carotene. Vit A from animals can be toxic.

3 Zinc from less phytate rich sources, allowing for greater bioavailability.

Incorrect. Actual zinc needs on a diet like I listed, would be about 1/3 to 1/2 the RDA, which I will be writing up soon. The diet I listed was also not a high phytate diet. Also, the target RDA already takes into account bio-availability issues and is elevated based on the assumption of a high phytate diet. Either way, the diet I listed has a higher level of Zinc.

Advantages:4 Conatins 104% of RDA for vitamin B12, something the sweet potato diet completely lacks.

Yes, but in order to get the Vit B12, this way, you have to pay a "cost". That cost is 66 mgs of cholesterol. Not high, but less is always better.

Your diet is also high in juice, which I showed in the other thread is detrimental to TGs and VLDL levels and body weight.

In addition,

The above diet has only 1.0 Omega 3s, which is below the AI set by the NAS and less than half of the NIH recommendations. The sweet potato diet had 3.2 (surpassing both the NAS and NIH goals) and a ratio below 2:1.

The above diet has less fiber, and does not make the RDA for calcium.

It was a valiant try, but, it failed.

If you would like to follow such a diet, it may be healthier than the typical American Diet, but good luck as we know of no populations who follow such a diet, nor do we have any longterm studies on such a diet.

Back to reality.

In Health
Jeff

PS why not try what we know works?

[Joe927]

Just wanted to say that that is not a fruitarian diet. Frutarians eat only fruits (sweet and non sweet) and tender green vegetables. The meat puts it right out of Fruitarian, as well as all the cooked vegetables.

[Quiet Heather]

Tom, I can tell you that I would be so uncomfortably hungry on that diet that I would not be able to stick to it even if it was the healthiest diet on the planet. Nothing but a cup of juice and one and a half bananas until noon and then nothing but juice and a couple of cups of spinach and mushrooms for lunch? That's painful just to read!

[Melinda]

I would be ravenous on that diet! And how could anyone drink 4 cups of juice and then eat the biggest meal of the day on that diet? My stomach would be uncomfortable after all that juice, let alone the food. I truly believe that in order to be healthy, we should not stuff ourselves til our stomach hurts with anything!!!

[auntemmy]

11g Chicken, liver, all classes, raw


Please clarify....

[TomE]

In addition, I do not know your point in trying to prove this can be done as a "fruitarian" diet.

I was just taking your challenge to come up with a better diet than the sweet potato diet. But I wanted to do it in a way that went against some aspect of Dr. McD's diet in some profound way, yet stuck to the general nutrient parameters. Just to make it more interesting (to me anyways).

Advantages:
1 Contains a small amount of animal protien, just like the Okinawans, who are the longest lived people in the world!

This is not an advantage. This is an exception. They got away with it, and had to do to environmental and geographical issues of their time. This is like saying drinking blood is an "advantage" because the Masai do it or eating whale blubber is an "advantage" because the Inuits do it. We need common denominators, not exceptions.

But animal protein is a common denomiator of all low-disease groups, including the rural Chinese that supposedly prove veganism superior in the China Study. Yes it's not much, but there could be some advantage to a small amount. In the case of the Okinawans, perhaps it's true that more DHA/EPA (from fish) optimizes health, even if less is necessary to prevent deficiency. It's true that one isn't a common denominator, but the Okinawans live the longest, not the Pimas or other groups. It's also possible the sweet potato is the reason they live the longest, or something having nothing to do with diet. But since we don't know wouldn't it be prudent to try to do most of what they do, unless there is a damn good reason not to (such as not eating so much salt.)

Actual zinc needs on a diet like I listed, would be about 1/3 to 1/2 the RDA, which I will be writing up soon. The diet I listed was also not a high phytate diet. Also, the target RDA already takes into account bio-availability issues and is elevated based on the assumption of a high phytate diet. Either way, the diet I listed has a higher level of Zinc.

I eagerly await your write up about zinc. This has always been something I (and many other people) have considered a problem with veganism.

in order to get the Vit B12, this way, you have to pay a "cost". That cost is 66 mgs of cholesterol. Not high, but less is always better.

I've read that dietary cholesterol, especially at these low levels, have no effect on blood cholesterol in most people.

Your diet is also high in juice, which I showed in the other thread is detrimental to TGs and VLDL levels and body weight.

Would switching to whole fruit mitigate this? Do you have an upper limit on fruit consumption, and is this the reason why? Would these effects likely occur in very thin people who eat alot of fruit, or drink fruit juice.

In addition,

The above diet has only...

I bet with some minor tweaking most of those things could improved.

Also, is more fiber above a certain higher amount (like 50g per day) necessarily better. I've read too much fiber inhibits absorption of minerals/nutrients. Is that true?



See, my approach to asking questions illuminated all those issues (fiber, cholesterol, fruit juice, fruit, DHA/EPA, B12, zinc, retinoic acid, etc) all in one post. Some of those I don't think have been asked before. So my effort had some value.

[Jaggu]

TomE,

You seem like a someone who is professional to me instead of some normal visitor that lands on this forum trying to seek help. You started defending F-diet over McD diet and I hope that was without any hidden intent.

I think you are asking some very intelligent questions and if there is no ulterior motive then it's all well and good, I also believe that it really doesn't matter who you are, if something is good then it is good, If F or McD or some other diet, if it's good then it's good and we should be open for all cross questioning, debate, discussions.

I must confess that we are learning a lot from the discussions between Jeff( who has been so patiently and intellectually helping us gain control over health) and yourself.

It is a human nature that sometimes "end justifies means", so when we believe in something, we only look at things from that perspective, it can and does happen with all people. Low fat, high fat, low carb, high carb...I mean all.

These days we hear a lot about Chinese and Japanese diet, how vegetarian diet is better etc. Chinese and Japanese population do consume some amount of animal protein( granted that they may consume lot less than Western population does), now if animal protein was that harmful, we should be looking at population which consumes even less animal protein than Chinese and Japanese do, if there is such region.

For e.g. People from India ( those that are vegetarians) consume absolutely no meat, eggs, poultry etc, eat mostly plant based diet consisting of rice, wheat, legumes, beans, vegetables etc ( they may consume oil, dairy etc) they are staunch vegetarians, they consume less animal protein than the population that is often discussed. Is the rate of heart diease, cancer and other diet promoted disease are less in India than those in China or Japan? I don't know the answer.

When you believe than low fat plant based diet without any animal protein is the holy grail, wouldn't you want to discuss the data from the population which consumes even less to further corroborate your point? I wonder why China study and other proponents of low fat plant based diet don't discuss the data from the population which doesn't consume any meat, even less than the centenarians, populations and regions that is often cited as long living people.

So I don't know whether diet is a panacea or it is combination of may be more than one factor that is responsible for the overall good and long health.

[JeffN]

I was just taking your challenge to come up with a better diet than the sweet potato diet. But I wanted to do it in a way that went against some aspect of Dr. McD's diet in some profound way, yet stuck to the general nutrient parameters. Just to make it more interesting (to me anyways).

Fruit juices, are not within the parameters I have recommended in my challenges.

Yes it's not much, but there could be some advantage to a small amount.

You would have to document what this "advantage is, otherwise you are speculating. The fact that George Burns made it to 101 and smoked cigars does not mean the cigars had anything to do with his longevity,or that there may be some advantage, unless you can document what that advantage is.

I eagerly await your write up about zinc. This has always been something I (and many other people) have considered a problem with veganism.

I do not use the word veganism at all as it tells me (or you) absolutely nothing about what someone eats or should eat. It only says what they do not eat. I discuss health parameters and yes, we know that no one has to be perfect and there is room for exception whether that be 1% -5% or maybe even 10% or more.

But, if you read my threads on that topic, we find that most of the people who engage in this philosophical debates, are not doing the other 90-95-99% at all that we know to really matter.

http://www.drmcdougall.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5907

Would switching to whole fruit mitigate this?

It would help some but still may end up raising TGs.

I bet with some minor tweaking most of those things could improved.

Why tweak it?

How long have you been 100% adherent 100% to the program to know it needs tweaking at all?

Why does everyone think they know how to do it better when so few have actually tried to really implement it.

Funny thing, when I can get someone to do it 100%, they realize it needs very little tweaking at all, most of which is just to suit their personal preferences.

See, my approach to asking questions illuminated all those issues (fiber, cholesterol, fruit juice, fruit, DHA/EPA, B12, zinc, retinoic acid, etc) all in one post. Some of those I don't think have been asked before. So my effort had some value.

Sorry, to disappoint you, but not really.

If you would have taken the time to read through the forum, you would have seen that we have already addressed fiber, cholesterol, fruit juice, fruit, DHA/EPA, B12, & Vit A in detail.

Zinc will be forthcoming but I bet most of those who follow this forum, already know where it is going.

In Health
Jeff

[Joe927]

Sort of a side question. The B12 has always been a sticking point when having discussions about low animal product diets (trying to abstain from using the term vegan). It seems to be the main argument for a lot of "we are obviously supposed to eat meat" believers. I rarely see it addressed other than to say that vegans should supplement B12. Is it possible that plants can provide all the B12 we need given that they aren't sterilized and washed to death? If i were to get all my food directly off the ground/tree/etc and only minimally wash it would I get all the B12 I need?

Where would it come from? Bacteria, insects, soil?

I'm sorry if this has been discussed at length. Tom brought it up and it's something I've been wondering. I'm in correspondence with a guy in Australia who gets his B12 checked on a regular basis, he is a fruitarian (an training as an endurance cyclist, with surprisingly good results). And when he went without overt fats, his B12 level went up over a 3 month period. I'm not advocating fruitarianism in any way, i just thought that this was an interesting result from someone eating nothing but fruit and green vegetables. It makes me question some of the things I've heard about B12.

[Lacey]

[quote="JeffN"]
Please re-read my response to your post on the pomegranate juice. You will see, this may not be a good thing. [quote]

Jeff, would you mind posting a link to your discussion on pomegranate juice. I can't seem to find it, and I am curious to know what you said. Thanks!

[JeffN]

Jeff, would you mind posting a link to your discussion on pomegranate juice. I can't seem to find it, and I am curious to know what you said. Thanks!

Sure, last post in the thread.

http://www.drmcdougall.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6790

Eat your fruit, don't drink it.

In Heath
Jeff