de novo lipogenesis

[lfwfv]

Hi Jeff,

Since de novo lipogenesis is such an inefficient process in humans, is it accurate to say that if somebody is following the MWL diet, even if they are overeating by, say 500 calories per day, they would not gain a significant amount of weight from that overeaten food (provided it was from whole starches, fruit, and veggies)?

I remember reading in one of the newsletters that it would take 4 months of significantly overeating carbohydrates to gain even a single pound of fat, since most of the extra calories are burned off as heat and in non-exercise activity. Is that true?

I understand one would not lose weight eating MWL if there was no deficit in calories, but at the same time, would it be difficult to gain weight on MWL due to the inefficiency of de novo lipogenesis?

hope that is a clear question,
lfwfv

[JeffN]

Since de novo lipogenesis is such an inefficient process in humans,

On de novo lipogensis

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=31324&p=314530&hilit=lipogenesis#p314530

eating MWL if there was no deficit in calories, but at the same time, would it be difficult to gain weight on MWL due to the inefficiency of de novo lipogenesis?

The main reason it is difficult gain weight on the MWL program is due to the low calorie density of the recommended foods

In Health
Jeff

[lfwfv]

Hmmm...so, in the thread linked to above you states:

"However, there is a limit to the amount of excess that will be burned off as heat. Keep doing it over time and/or do too much of it and you will override the system and store the excess calories as fat."

If someone required, say 2500 calories per day to maintain their weight, and they consistently ate 3200 calories per day of MWL-approved, low calorie dense foods, would you expect significant fat gain over the course of say three to four months? Or would it be more likely that they would gain an insignificant amount of fat from that excess given they were calories coming from whole starches and/or veggies and fruits? McDougall seemed to say in his 2009 newsletter that it would take 4 months of excessive overeating of carbs to see a gain of even 1lb of fat.

Thanks for the clarification,
lfwfv

[JeffN]

It would be fairly difficult for someone to consume 3200 calories per day of low calorie dense approved MWL foods.

If you create a calorie balance excess, over time, you will gain weight.

The calories balance equation, which includes the "thermal effect of food" already takes into consideration heat loss from food.

In health
Jeff

[lfwfv]

Sorry to push this, but you are saying that mcdougall's statement that "excess starch does not turn to body fat" from his 2009 march newsletter (where he summarizes that even with long-term overeating of excess starch it would take 4 months to gain 1lb of fat) is probably incorrect then? He does say the excess is burnt off as heat but also extra non-exercise movement. I just see a strong contradiction between what you are saying and what dr. Mcdougall has clearly stated in that newsletter and it confuses me as to who is interpreting the science correctly since I highly respect both your work.

Oh and for the record, I would estimate I would be eating in excess of 3000 calories of MWL food per day lately. Exclusively breastfeeding my son and walking 3-6 miles most days with him in a carrier has given me a ferocious appetite that is not easily sated, no matter how bulky the food is. And yes, it is a LOT of food but I literally can't sleep due to thoughts of needing food unless I eat that much most days. I do sometimes resort to plain rice cakes to get in some low-bulk calories but most days I am getting my nourishment solely from plain veggies, fruits, whole intact cooked grains, and squash and potatoes.

Thanks for your patience
Lfwfv

[JeffN]

De novo lipogeneisis is not something i focus on, nor is it something I think others should focus on either. The only comment I have made in regard to it in this forum in over 5 years, is the one I linked to, which I also repeated here

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=14103&p=127419&hilit=lipogenesis#p127419

and there was also this one, which was in relation to another discussion...

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=7734&p=57365&hilit=lipogenesis#p57365

As you can see, other factors, including glygocen stores, play a role in de novo lipogenesis so there is no one set number as to how much excess calories you can eat and/or for how long, before it kicks in.

The real issue though in regard to weight, regardless of whether it is weight gain, weight loss or weight maintenance is energy balance and the best way to deal with that is by understanding the principles of calorie density. To me, that is what is most important and what I hope to convey to others. Sure, there are many, many other factors that may play a role but their role is much smaller and usually not under our control. Activity levels would also need to be considered.

I said it would be "fairly difficult" for someone to get in 3500 calories on MWL approved low-calorie dense foods but not impossible. However, you are not in a "typical" situation, as breastfeeding increases the amount of calories needed per day. In addition, "estimates" of caloric intake, even amongst professionals, can be up to 40% off, which means the 3000 may be as low as 1800.

I would like to see a list of the foods and the amounts you are consuming that you estimate to be 3000 calories.

I am also not sure of what your point is in all of this, or what you are trying to get at.

In Health
Jeff

[lfwfv]

Sorry. I guess I am asking because despite focusing on eating low calorie sense foods (I eat at least 50% of my food as raw veggies per volume) I have gained about 4-5 lbs in the past nearly three months. I was actually slightly underweight 2 weeks postpartum and am now sitting at a BMI of around 19-19.5 most days. I am wondering how this is possible given the calorie density of my diet. Perhaps my body knows it needs to be at a slightly higher set point weight in order to support breastfeeding? I really can't seem to eat any less no matter how much I try to push the calorie density to the lowest end.

In an average day I will eat
1-2lbs raw carrots
1lb green beans
7 celery stalks
2 heads of romaine
1tbsp nutritional yeast
1tsp flax
1-2lbs steamed red potatoes
4acorn squash (baked)
3-4 apples
3-5 bananas
1/2 cup (measured dry) brown rice
1/2cup dried rolled oats

Ridiculous I know. This seems to be necessary just to keep energized and to feel sated.

Thanks
Lfwfv

[JeffN]

In an average day I will eat....

1-2lbs raw carrots
1-2lbs steamed red potatoes
3-4 apples
3-5 bananas

Your above estimates alone could be off by 900 calories, just from the ranges you have listed in these few foods.

If you are interested, I would recommend that you carefully weigh and measure your food intake and plug it into the CRON-O-Meter for about 2 weeks to get a much better idea of actual caloric intake. In addition, one would also need to carefully monitor all activity levels during that period too.

In Health
Jeff

[lfwfv]

Thank you for your thoughts Jeff. I gave the ranges because the amount i eat on any given day varies based on my hunger levels.

I think, realistically, even if i did know the exact number of calories i was eating and burning, i could not eat less without seriously denying my appetite.

Perhaps it is time to accept that I have pushed the calorie density of my diet as low as i can tolerate (any less and i will no longer feel satisfied), and that the weight I am currently at is the lowest set-point i can comfortably achieve.

I do realize i could lose more if i ate more veggies in favor of starches, but i know i could not maintain that ratio long-term because i feel deprived and hungry for more calories when i have tried.

Thank you for your patience with my questions!
lfwfv

[JeffN]

Thank you for your thoughts Jeff. I gave the ranges because the amount i eat on any given day varies based on my hunger levels.

My point was to show you that the variance in the rough estimates you gave were; 1) in and of themselves, more than potential impact of de novo lipogenesis. 2) if you were over 700 calories a day then you think, it can easily explain the weight gain.

I think, realistically, even if i did know the exact number of calories i was eating and burning, i could not eat less without seriously denying my appetite. Perhaps it is time to accept that I have pushed the calorie density of my diet as low as i can tolerate (any less and i will no longer feel satisfied), and that the weight I am currently at is the lowest set-point i can comfortably achieve.

To be honest, I am not sure why you are concerned about this right now. First, you are breastfeeding and so, getting to some idealistic BMI number during this time may not be a priority. Second, a BMI of 19 - 19.5 while breastfeeding is nothing to worry about. I would consider it excellent. Remember, we are in this for the long haul.

I do realize i could lose more if i ate more veggies in favor of starches, but i know i could not maintain that ratio long-term because i feel deprived and hungry for more calories when i have tried.

Correct. And, lets see what happens in a few more months as the amount you breastfeed goes down.

Thank you for your patience with my questions!
lfwfv

Thank you

In Health
Jeff

[lfwfv]

Thanks Jeff. I actually know I tend to not menstruate when I am at a bmi lower than where I currently am anyways. I followed dr. Mcdougall's advice to gain weight prior to getting pregnant with my little one in order to restore my fertility. It worked! i guess for women, not everybody can have a bmi of 18.5 and have enough bodyfat fat to support fertility. I lost to a place below my 'fertile weight' postpartum and I guess I hoped I could maintain it. My hunger levels have made that seemingly impossible though.

I think I might just need to accept that an ideal weight for me might not be a bmi of 18.5 and I need to let go of that ideal in order to be healthy. This is more about disordered body image than it is about health I think. Thanks for your rational perspective and reminder that I am indeed at a very healthy place currently and that health, not some arbitrarially ideal weight, is the priority.

Thanks again for your patience,
Lfwfv

[hazelrah]

Hi Jeff,

Sorry to bother you again and sorry to bump this, but an article arrived in my LinkedIn newsfeed today. It was shared by a friend and purported to objectively assess the value of Kombucha. Just as you are thinking now, it was one of those smoke and mirror lifestyle pieces seriously considering if drinking a gallon of Kombucha every day can cure venereal disease or something, but in the article it said:

Speaking of sugar, it's relatively easy for your body to process sugar, and if you aren't active, those calories will be stored as fat, Dr. Arad explained.

.

My understanding from studying and trying to implement this lifestyle is that de novo lipogenesis is not easy for the body and it will try to fill its energy needs by almost any other means it can find. I looked through your material and did not find a direct substantiation of that understanding, so I did a Google search and found this article from the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, which I thought does a pretty good job of it and I wanted to make it available in searches that might include this thread:

https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/74/6/707/4737384

Again, sorry for the bump. Hope you are doing well.

Mark