Your Opinions on the 80/10/10 diet

[jmygann]

Potato, My Sweet ......


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gk0jjDy3 ... r_embedded

from the sweet potato council

http://www.cayam.com/sweetpotatoandyam.html

What % of my diet could/should be sweet potatoes if I wanted to grow my food ?

Pounds per year/adult ?

How much space per adult in a Complete Diet Garden ?

I'm thinking 2.5 acres/adult for a complete "sustainable" Diet

[coyaba]

I've found it interesting to read all of the posts on this topic. In my own experience, I did follow Dr. Graham's 80/10/10rv for a number of months. Of course I ate huge volumes of fruits. I am also an endurance athlete so I was curious to see any impacts on athletic performance.

I stopped following this fruitarian approach mainly because my triglycerides went up about 4x from blood work done in the previous year. Cholesterol was also up a bit. All of this, I'm sure, due to the huge amount of simple sugars.

I posted a question about this on a message board to Dr. Graham. He replied but I felt that his replies were unconvincing and lacking logical foundation --- that's just only my own opinion.

Needless to say I no longer follow Dr. Graham's philosophy and am much more satisfied (and healthier) including cooked foods and starches.

My 2 cents....

[mortimerlightwood]

I got through all the posts and while I think I understood what JeffN and Mober were saying I don't think they contradicted my view that it is much easier and way more economical to live on a 100 mile diet with McDougall than 811. Eating raw is not cheap in the far north and I must say that in the middle of January when the temperature is 30 below (wind-chill of 40 below) you really could not face a banana - even several hundred - and hope to stay warm. A bowl of beans, stewed veggies and a thick slice of bread (with maple syrup, my tiny sin) on the other hand, will keep your engines fired. I wonder how long the bamboo-bicycle guy would last up here? Of course, I cannot argue scientifically and I am unaware of the life-cycle of gorillas, but I do have my life to look at and consider what makes me healthy and feel good. So, thank you for this very interesting discussion but canning season has begun! Au revoir.

[JeffN]

I got through all the posts and while I think I understood what JeffN and Mober were saying I don't think they contradicted my view that it is much easier and way more economical to live on a 100 mile diet with McDougall than 811.

Greetings,

Correct. While, I did not really address this issue in my comments,I do agree with you on this point.

In fact, it is one of the main contributing reasons as to why the FAO of the UN called 2007 the year of the Potato.

In Health
Jeff

[jmygann]

Regarding Grains...

If the grain is germinated/sprouted , doesn't that change the nutrient numbers ? Just as in cooking ??

[durianrider]

gday jeff, thanks for answering.

maybe i missed it, but did you supply a rebuttal for the raw food athletes making it 'to the top'? or did you retract your initial statement and i just missed it somehow? thanks.

cooked potatoes sure do provide a lot of nutrition on paper, but the deforestation it takes and the soil erosion that occurs due to the tap roots of trees no longer being present in areas where they once grew..im not sure how 3world communitys are meant to sustain their local environment. not to mention all the rainforrests they must chop down to grow cane to make the bland cooked potatoes taste sweet (lets face it, you EVER ate a meal of starch and not felt like something sweet after? jam and bread, maple on pancakes, ice cream etc) or the trees that must be chopped down for firewood cos 4 billion of the world population relies on cutting down trees for firewood...

basically we are doing what easter island folk did..they cut down all the trees for firewood and eventually wiped out there civilisation..

fruit doesnt require the addition of irritating spices, condiments etc. it doesnt require cooking and provides simple sugars and vitamin c.

it would be a fun experiement to put 10 people on 100% grains (say 10 different varieties) with no condiments etc and 10 people on 100% fruit (also 10 different varieties) for 10 months and have them doing athletic output etc and see how they go emotionally, physically and nutritionally. that would be a sweet experiement!! i put my hand up.

[Joe927]

Actually I eat grains and potatoes all the time without condiments. I think they taste amazing.

[Nettie]

...fruit ....provides simple sugars and vitamin c....

So does a white potato!

Nettie

[vgpedlr]

I like plain starches, and when I eat starch I rarely crave sweet. I tried both appoaches and honestly can't tell the difference between different types of carbohydrate. What makes the difference is getting rid of fat, especially hidden oil. I think that the macronutrient ratio similarity of 811rv to the diet espoused here is what matters most. As far as environmental production costs, it seems many societies thrived and continue to thrive on a starch based diet. I don't think that the problems of industrial agriculture are the result of cooking. But if Graham or any others involved in raw food can provide more than anecdotal evidence showing benefits above and beyond a McDougall diet, I would be fascinated to read it. I went back to my copy of 80-10-10 to reread Graham's criticism of Nathan Pritikin, whose approach is similar to McDougall, and I was unimpressed by the argument. That said, its hot today and after my training ride I think I'll have a giant Graham style salad with blended fruit dressing... mmm !

[Symphonyofdreams]

One thing that guys following 80/10/10 say is that people naturally like fruits. And that's a interesting point. Fruit and some veggies is pretty much the only foods that everyone likes unprocessed. I don't know anyone that injoys plain starch without cooking in oil or adding spics ect. Yeah i know after a while you get used to it, but i have a friend who's been on this diet for 1 year and i asked him if things taste more exciting now and he says some old taste, don't excpet much lol.

[Symphonyofdreams]

I mean just like you said Plain brown rice by it's self without anything else. IT's not bad by anymeans but not somthing people say i'm really wanting brown rice without butter or salt. Where everyone i've met likes fruit everyone

[Mober]

Thanks, Jeff

I still believe "eat no animal products" is unambiguous. I think you guys say that to avoid the philosophy battle, which is what I thought we were doing here. BTW, go have this chat on the other sites and see how it goes! I see this philosophy battle in almost everything ... forefoot/midfoot or heel striking; Chirunning or Pose; should the President wish kids happy school year ... So I appreciate the detailed response.

Here is another comparison:

Sweet Potato, Cooked Papaya, Raw
Protein 23.3 g 14 g
Fiber 36.7 g 4.1 g
Fat 1.7 g 3 g

Vitamins 78%

Vitamin A 213531.2 IU 25160 IU
Folate 66.7 ug 874 mg
B1 (Thiamine) 1.2 mg 1 mg
B2 (Riboflavin) 1.2 mg 1 mg
B3 (Niacin) 16.5 mg 8 mg
B5 (Pantothenic Acid) 9.8 mg 5 mg
B6 (Pyridoxine) 3.2 mg 0 mg
Vitamin C 217.8 mg 1420 mg
Vitamin E 7.9 mg 17 mg
Vitamin K 25.6 ug 60 ug

Minerals 73%

Calcium 422.2 mg 552 mg
Copper 1.8 mg 0 mg
Iron 7.7 mg 2 mg
Magnesium 300.0 mg 230 mg
Manganese 5.5 mg 0 mg
Phosphorus 600.0 mg 115 mg
Potassium 5277.7 mg 5910 mg
Selenium 2.2 ug 14 ug
Sodium 400.0 mg 69 mg
Zinc 3.6 mg 2 mg

Saturated Fat 0.4 g 1 g

I don't have your DRI % calculations, but this is interesting. I see why 811 recommends greens in addition.

Also interesting:

Banana, Raw Potato, Cooked+skin Brown Rice, cooked
Protein 12.2 g 25 g 25 g
Fiber 29.2 g 22 g 17.5 g
Fat 3.7 g 1 g 9 g

Vitamins 51%

Vitamin A 719.1 IU 100 IU 0 IU
Folate 224.7 ug 280 ug 40 mg
B1 (Thiamine) 0.3 mg 1 mg 1 mg
B2 (Riboflavin) 0.8 mg 0 mg 0 mg
B3 (Niacin) 7.5 mg 14 mg 15 mg
B5 (Pantothenic Acid) 3.8 mg 4 mg 3 mg
B6 (Pyridoxine) 4.1 mg 3 mg 1.5 mg
Vitamin C 97.8 mg 96 mg 0 mg
Vitamin E 1.1 mg 0 mg 0.5 mg
Vitamin K 5.6 ug 2 ug 6 ug

Minerals 47%

Calcium 56.2 mg 150 mg 100 mg
Copper 0.9 mg 1 mg 1 mg
Iron 2.9 mg 11 mg 4 mg
Magnesium 303.4 mg 280 mg 420 mg
Manganese 3.0 mg 2 mg 10 mg
Phosphorus 247.2 mg 700 mg 800 mg
Potassium 4022.5 mg 5350 mg 420 mg
Selenium 11.2 ug 4 ug 100 ug
Sodium 11.2 mg 100 mg 50 mg
Zinc 1.7 mg 4 mg 6 mg

Saturated Fat 1.3 g 0 g 2 g

Where I started with this was doing Mary's mini and looking at what foods I could alternate through after potatoes. I checked out nutritiondata and lo and behold fruits came up w/ about the same macronutrient profiles as the cooked foods. I had never even heard of 811 at that point.

When I look at all this, it seems to indicate it would be acceptable to use fruit as a baseline. It does not say fruit is best and it appears sweet potato owns that title. But then compared to say brown rice!

[Mober]

Guava has Sweet Potato beat? (not that I could even eat enough nor afford to)

Sweet Potato, Cooked Guava, Raw
Protein 23.3 g 42 g
Fiber 36.7 g 89 g
Fat 1.7 g 16g

Vitamins 78%

Vitamin A 213531.2 IU 10300 IU
Folate 66.7 ug 808 ug
B1 (Thiamine) 1.2 mg 1 mg
B2 (Riboflavin) 1.2 mg 1 mg
B3 (Niacin) 16.5 mg 18 mg
B5 (Pantothenic Acid) 9.8 mg 7 mg
B6 (Pyridoxine) 3.2 mg 2 mg
Vitamin C 217.8 mg 3770 mg
Vitamin E 7.9 mg 12 mg
Vitamin K 25.6 ug 43 ug

Minerals 73%

Calcium 422.2 mg 297 mg
Copper 1.8 mg 4 mg
Iron 7.7 mg 4 mg
Magnesium 300.0 mg 363 mg
Manganese 5.5 mg 2 mg
Phosphorus 600.0 mg 660 mg
Potassium 5277.7 mg 6880 mg
Selenium 2.2 ug 19 ug
Sodium 400.0 mg 33 mg
Zinc 3.6 mg 4 mg

Saturated Fat 0.4 g 4 g

[Mober]

I won't keep posting these, but this one I can afford and could eat all day:

Sweet Potato, Cooked Cantaloupe, Raw
Protein 23.3 g 26 g
Fiber 36.7 g 28 g
Fat 1.7 g 6 g

Vitamins 78%

Vitamin A 213531.2 IU 108120 IU
Folate 66.7 ug 642 ug
B1 (Thiamine) 1.2 mg 2 mg
B2 (Riboflavin) 1.2 mg 0 mg
B3 (Niacin) 16.5 mg 24 mg
B5 (Pantothenic Acid) 9.8 mg 4 mg
B6 (Pyridoxine) 3.2 mg 2 mg
Vitamin C 217.8 mg 1160 mg
Vitamin E 7.9 mg 2 mg
Vitamin K 25.6 ug 80 ug

Minerals 73%

Calcium 422.2 mg 288 mg
Copper 1.8 mg 2 mg
Iron 7.7 mg 6 mg
Magnesium 300.0 mg 400 mg
Manganese 5.5 mg 2 mg
Phosphorus 600.0 mg 480 mg
Potassium 5277.7 mg 8600 mg
Selenium 2.2 ug 12 ug
Sodium 400.0 mg 520 mg
Zinc 3.6 mg 6 mg

Saturated Fat 0.4 g 2 g

[JeffN]

Greetings,

I appreciate your efforts and the point you are trying to make. In addition, I am glad to see you using the CRON-O-Meter to see the actual numbers and to make your comparisons.

While there are some fruits that are higher in nutrient density, to me, there are some clear nutrient differences that are significant and favor the starchy vegetables over the fruit.

As with those who encourage higher consumptions of nuts, those diets can also still be nutrient dense and be shown to meet the nutrient requirements, though with some clear nutrient differences that are significant and again, favor the starchy vegetables over the nuts as I have pointed out in this forum.

In addition, as with those advocating the higher fat/nut based diet, unlike the guidelines and principles recommended here...

1) there is little to any published evidence documenting the safety of such an approach and several studies have raised some concerns about the safety of it. In regard to the high fruit diet this includes dental erosion's, Hcy levels, TG's, AGEs all of which have been discussed in this forum.

2) there is no evidence of any human population anywhere, who are successfully following and/or have successfully followed such a diet, to show its safety. A few anecdotal stories that may be popular and receive wide circulation on the internet, most all from the promoter's of the diet, are not evidence.

3) an evaluation of all the long lived populations show none of them consume anything similar and fruit consumption is actually quite low amongst them.

In explaining your understanding of the program, you seem to be very clear on what "no animal products" means but not as clear on what "starch based" means. There are reasons why this is clearly a starch based diet and not a fruit based diet as I have shared in this thread, nor is a fruit based diet recommended or said to be equally interchangeable.

However, as I said earlier in the thread...

"I have absolutely no problem with anyone following a 100% raw diet if they wanted to and have several clients who do. However, for optimal health, their diet must provide the essentials, meet the nutritional requirements of the human body, and avoid any harmful components of the diet."

I encourage you to continue your efforts and if you feel so led, to actually go on the fruit based 80/10/10 rv diet for several months to see how you do and let us know. In my own experience working with many others over the two decades, few, if any at all, are truly successful at it.

Having said that, approaching it from the perspective you are, and actually trying to see what it takes to make it nutrient dense and meet all the nutrient requirements of the human body, and what foods must be included and/or avoided is the most intelligent way to do so.

In Health
Jeff