April 2020 McDougall MWL Weigh-In Thread

[kaseymarie]

Hello! I am new to the discussion board/McDougall way of eating in general (I started March 15th). I have been plant based for 4 years but completely avoided starches other than beans, oatmeal and occasionally quinoa. I was eating a very strict beans, vegetables, fruit and nuts/seeds. Over the years since college I have gained around 10 pounds that I want to lose. I tried calorie counting and what not before but could not lose those ten pounds. I randomly listened to an interview with Chef AJ and resonated with her story so well. That's when I started eating potatoes which I had always completely avoided due to their glycemic index. I really just love being able to eat so much. My current weight is 140 and I'm trying to get to 130. Since starting the McDougall program I've noticed my sleep has improved drastically and I wake up at 6:30 without even needing an alarm clock.

One thing I struggle with is eating at night at an afternoon slump. I do so good all day but at night after dinner I feel like I have an endless appetite. I know I'm eating enough because I'm counting calories, but I honestly can't seem to stay under my TDEE. I also know you don't need to count calories but when I tried to stop I kept eating to the point of being stuffed. As far as the checklist goes, I did all 10 points except "eliminate all higher fat plant foods" and "avoid being sedentary." I found when I completely eliminated nuts I felt terrible and exhausted on 5% fat so I added in 11 grams a day (if anyone has any advice on how much fat to consume that'd be super helpful!).

[Mark Cooper]

kaseymarie - Hello! I'm sure you are grateful for better quality sleep, especially in the current wider situation. My initial question would be - when you are engaging in that after dinner eating, what sorts of foods are you consuming? Additionally, I would say that if you are counting calories, then you are not following the program as it is intended. Would you be willing to consider, as an experiment, following the MWL 10-Point Checklist as written for a full week? Does it feel possible for you to eat, in adherence with the MWL guidelines, whenever you are hungry, until you are comfortably full, and not track things in any other ways? I would encourage you to take some time to read this article from Jeff Novick - How to Successfully Count Calories!

[kaseymarie]

Thank you for your quick reply! And the after dinner eating is usually between 8 and 10 and last night it was roasted zucchini and potatoes. So nothing unhealthy but I had a very big dinner, so I don't think I was truly hungry. I try to eat dinner later but I swear I get so hungry and end up eating very early. And yes I'm going to try stopping the calorie counting for a week! Do you think it's ok to consume 11 grams of walnuts? Or do you have any opinions on that? I want to be able to follow the program but I feel significantly more energized on the days I do have those 11 grams. Before when I felt terrible I wasn't consuming any source of fat though other than what was in potatoes, vegetables and a serving of oatmeal.

[Mark Cooper]

Thank you for your quick reply! And the after dinner eating is usually between 8 and 10 and last night it was roasted zucchini and potatoes. So nothing unhealthy but I had a very big dinner, so I don't think I was truly hungry. I try to eat dinner later but I swear I get so hungry and end up eating very early. And yes I'm going to try stopping the calorie counting for a week! Do you think it's ok to consume 11 grams of walnuts? Or do you have any opinions on that? I want to be able to follow the program but I feel significantly more energized on the days I do have those 11 grams. Before when I felt terrible I wasn't consuming any source of fat though other than what was in potatoes, vegetables and a serving of oatmeal.

Speaking from personal experience (as someone who attempted to count calories for an extended period of time), when I had that sensation of being really hungry, even after finishing a big dinner, what I eventually came to realize was that I wasn't eating a sufficient amount of starch earlier in the day. I would encourage you to adhere to all 10 points from the MWL checklist and, following those principles, eat whenever you are hungry, until you are comfortably full. Don't delay eating, if you are hungry, and try not to worry about how much you are eating, provided that you follow the principles. Don't worry about any sort of "eating window." It may seem like you are really eating A LOT, but the MWL guidelines are there to ensure the overall diet is calorie dilute. I would suggest eliminating all higher fat plant foods, remember this is just an experiment for one week, and you can always reassess in the future. Just be sure you are including at least 50% (by visual volume) minimally processed starches each time you have a meal. I think you might also find this thread of interest - Finding The Sweet Spot: Balancing Calorie Density, Nutrient Density & Satiety

[kaseymarie]

Speaking from personal experience (as someone who attempted to count calories for an extended period of time), when I had that sensation of being really hungry, even after finishing a big dinner, what I eventually came to realize was that I wasn't eating a sufficient amount of starch earlier in the day. I would encourage you to adhere to all 10 points from the MWL checklist and, following those principles, eat whenever you are hungry, until you are comfortably full. Don't delay eating, if you are hungry, and try not to worry about how much you are eating, provided that you follow the principles. Don't worry about any sort of "eating window." It may seem like you are really eating A LOT, but the MWL guidelines are there to ensure the overall diet is calorie dilute. I would suggest eliminating all higher fat plant foods, remember this is just an experiment for one week, and you can always reassess in the future. Just be sure you are including at least 50% (by visual volume) minimally processed starches each time you have a meal. I think you might also find this thread of interest - Finding The Sweet Spot: Balancing Calorie Density, Nutrient Density & Satiety

(sorry not sure the best way to do replies on here) but reading the other thread now! I am convinced - I am going to try not eating the nuts at all or counting calories for the next week. Last question I promise! Do you think when I was feel super tired and low energy in the afternoon it was because I wasn't eating enough starch? I just don't know if that could be the case because I was counting calories, ate over my TDEE and was eating 85% starch, 4% fat and 15% protein. I'm not arguing at all - I know a gazillion people have success on this diet by eating zero high fat plant foods, I just can't figure out why I felt so exhausted. It was terrible and then the next couple days when I added 11 grams of walnuts I felt significantly better.

[Mark Cooper]

I, of course, cannot know the entire and complete context of the situation you are describing, with respect to fatigue. I would, however, observe that many different inputs (some easy for us to notice and some not so easy to monitor) can have an effect on one's perceived energy level. Based on my own experience, and the experiences of other participants, it is nearly impossible to accurately count calories, so as precise as we might think we are being, we could be substantially under (or over) estimating. Additionally, many people find that they have voluminous appetites in the early days of adopting this way of eating, in my experience this tends to normalize after a sufficient period of adherence. If this is a particular concern for you, it might be worth discussing with your physician or health care professional.

[wildgoose]

I know a gazillion people have success on this diet by eating zero high fat plant foods, I just can't figure out why I felt so exhausted. It was terrible and then the next couple days when I added 11 grams of walnuts I felt significantly better.

@kaseymarie, I think I can identify a little with how you’re feeling. With me it wasn’t walnuts, it was black olives. I’d feel SO much better when I ate about 7 or 8 olives (OK, better still when I ate the whole can, but I "moderated" my fat intake to 7 or 8 ). I just couldn’t see how doing the right thing made me feel so awful and doing the wrong thing made me feel so good.

Dr. Doug Lisle says that’s exactly how it works. We're designed to seek out the richest food in the environment. Our bodies reward that behavior by releasing chemicals that make us feel better. It’s how our stone-age ancestors survived in a time of scarcity. Unfortunately, the modern food supply is at odds with our stone-age design. We're still seeking out the richest foods, and getting rewarded for it, but rich food is everywhere and there’s no danger of scarcity.

Dr. Caldwell Esselstyn and Dr. Alan Goldhamer have also pointed out that we have fat receptors that are used to being satisfied. When we don’t "feed" them, they complain. Eventually, those receptors downregulate (i.e. they get used to not being fed), and they stop complaining. This process can take a while — up to 3 months — and if you eat higher-fat foods in the process, you start the cycle all over again.

The only way I got out of the routine of eating olives was to stop eating olives. No fun at all. But I gradually got to the point where I felt fine without them. It just took time.

Mark is right. You need to eat starch. Eat more starch earlier in the day. If you’re hungry in the evening, have a piece of sweet potato. (I have some ideas on evening eating, too, but that’s another post ). Don’t be afraid of starch. Even if you initially put on a couple of pounds, it’s not fat. It’s water and glycogen (especially if you haven’t been used to eating starch), and it won’t last. You say you have listened to Chef AJ, so you know that she eats a large volume of broccoli and sweet potato for her favorite meal (and that she couldn’t lose the last 10 pounds as long as she was still eating nuts and nut butter).

So I would suggest you do the experiment, but think about doing it for, say, 28 days rather than just a week. Commit to the 10 points of the MWL checklist, particularly the point about avoiding high-fat plant foods, and see how you feel at the end of 28 days. Get those walnuts out of your house, so they don’t call your name late at night. Make sure you have plenty of tasty starch prepared and available. And see what happens!

Goose

[laurag]

Hi Mark, the food I'm over eating on is a potato after lunch with mustard relish or a soup vegetable before I'm hungry again then dinner before hungry and I usually do a banana for bedtime snack. I will do seconds for dinner and not always follow 50/50 . I think by writing this down I just need to do 50/50 each time. My dinner is usually rice with veggies and rooster sauce with a sweet thia chili or rice and beans with kale cabbage or salad. This week I added corn tortillas so that's not on plan I was just so missing them, Thank you so much

[kaseymarie]

I know a gazillion people have success on this diet by eating zero high fat plant foods, I just can't figure out why I felt so exhausted. It was terrible and then the next couple days when I added 11 grams of walnuts I felt significantly better.

@kaseymarie, I think I can identify a little with how you’re feeling. With me it wasn’t walnuts, it was black olives. I’d feel SO much better when I ate about 7 or 8 olives (OK, better still when I ate the whole can, but I "moderated" my fat intake to 7 or 8 ). I just couldn’t see how doing the right thing made me feel so awful and doing the wrong thing made me feel so good.

Dr. Doug Lisle says that’s exactly how it works. We're designed to seek out the richest food in the environment. Our bodies reward that behavior by releasing chemicals that make us feel better. It’s how our stone-age ancestors survived in a time of scarcity. Unfortunately, the modern food supply is at odds with our stone-age design. We're still seeking out the richest foods, and getting rewarded for it, but rich food is everywhere and there’s no danger of scarcity.

Goose

Thank you again Mark! Ah wildgoose, this was what I was looking for. Other people seem to have no problem completely cutting out fat. So are you saying you did completely give up olives to lose weight and eventually felt better? Congrats on the weight loss by the way! To be honest I saw your name in the thread before and definitely stalked your posts to see what you've been eating. I'm in such a similar situation as Chef AJ where I have a history of binging so I'm absolutely anal about eating healthy, but I just can't get rid of those last ten pounds. I literally binged watched basically every interview she's done so I know cutting out fat would help me, but in her interviews she never mentioned feeling so terrible after cutting out fat. I thought maybe I just had a different body chemistry.

[Mark Cooper]

I think by writing this down I just need to do 50/50 each time.

I think that makes sense. If you continue to have an urge toward overeating, it also might be worth taking a look at those condiments - I don't know for sure without knowing the specific ingredients, but just offhand I'm guessing they may be pretty high in salt or sugar or both, which could also provoke some desire to continue eating past satiation.

[wildgoose]

So are you saying you did completely give up olives to lose weight and eventually felt better?
.....
I thought maybe I just had a different body chemistry.

That’s exactly what I’m saying, kaseymarie. I also was working on high blood pressure, so I needed to get rid of the sodium as well as the fat. Those olives had to go. And by cutting them out totally, not just trying to have a few from time to time, I downregulated the fat receptors faster. Not to say that the process was fast, even with total abstinence. It wasn’t. But I kept feeling gradually better. Noticeably enough after 28 days that I knew I was on the right track. It did take almost the whole 3 months that Dr. Goldhamer talked about before the olives quit whispering in my ear (“eat me, eat me,”), however.

I don’t think you have a different body chemistry. Your body is working the way it’s designed to — seeking out the most calorically dense food that you can find.

I’m not sure you’re overeating either, in terms of volume (now in terms of what you’re eating, that’s different). If you stick with whole starches, you can eat quite a lot. What starch fills you up most? I tend to get hungrier sooner after a meal of rice or oatmeal than I do after a meal with potato or sweet potato. So, knowing that, I might eat an earlier dinner if I had rice for lunch. No big deal. Or I might have half a sweet potato, air fried with apple slices and cinnamon, for dessert after a meal of rice and veggies.

I did that today for lunch. Lunch was a burrito bowl. I started with a bottom layer of about a cup of brown rice. Then a layer of about a cup of smashed pinto beans (I make a huge pot of beans using Mary McDougall's fantastic, easy recipe). Heat that up in the microwave, then pile on a thick layer of chopped salad greens (romaine and spinach in my case), tomato, cucumber, corn and onion. Top with salsa. Now I’m talking a big bowl here — mixing bowl size. It takes a while to eat. But I still wasn’t full, so I made half a sweet potato in the air fryer, as I described above.

That’s a lot of food. But none of it is calorically dense. No tortillas (gave those to the Gander for his burrito; I was perfectly happy with the bowl). No avocado. No sugary or salty sauces (I got a rude awakening when I started reading labels on some of those condiments! — Mark might be on to something in his last suggestion to laurag). No olives. Still delicious. And I can eat until comfortably full, not worrying and not counting calories.

That’s why MWL works. Calorie density. You get to eat in a way that keeps you full and satisfied, and in a way that’s sustainable for the rest of your life. But you have to do it as written. Once your taste buds adapt, if you don’t go off plan, and if you’re always prepared, it’s not hard. Take it from me. I tried every cheat, every bargain, every "justa" (just a few olives, just a couple of tablespoons of ranch dressing....), for years. Then I got with the program, went all in, and got rid of my high blood pressure, about 80% of my joint pain, and 55 extra pounds, in less than a year. Not a bad tradeoff. Nothing tastes as good as being thin and healthy feels.

Goose

[Mark Cooper]

I'm looking forward to tomorrow's weigh-in and seeing everyone's reports! Friday is this group's weigh-in day, and participants have until noon pacific time (19:00 UTC) on Saturday to post a report of their result for the week. Reports posted outside that window of time won't be included in the summary that I compile for Saturday evening. In addition to reporting your weight change in pounds, more importantly, please be sure to evaluate your behaviors within the context of the MWL 10-Point Checklist, if you please. I will respond to everyone's reports in a cumulative post on Friday evening and Saturday evening, and the summary for the week will be posted Saturday night.

I hope everyone is having a successful, safe, and joyful week, so far! Cheers to tomorrow!

[NateKruse]

I stopped weighing myself every morning. I haven’t stepped on the scale since Sunday. The suspense is killing me! I look forward to seeing everyone’s results this weekend.

[carolw]

Hi Marc and all the MWLers,

I am happy to report that in my first week of MWL I lost 3.1 pounds! Which brings me to my current weight of 62.4 kilos or 137 lbs.And i want to reassure you all I ate 3 very substantial meals. 2 of them- lunch and dinner were huge. I am now not usually hungry between meals EXCEPT when I do not make my meals huge. Like today for lunch I skimped on the starches and cooked veggies and within 2 hours was hungry again. My go to snack is a cold baked sweet potato. If you havent eaten sugary stuff for a while they taste like ice cream or pudding.

I adhered to the 10 points of MWL pretty religiously. Marc was such a help with his encouraging remarks and his gentle criticism of my using soy sauce in salad dressing and a takeout soup which may have oil and salt in it. It is remarkable that nothing gets past his sharp eye. It's this personal regard for everyone who has joined this discussion that has given me enthusiasm to persevere in this discussion. Thank you so much Marc.

I have been a McDougaller for almost 10 years. I'm down from my highest weight when younger of 200 pounds.
The most important element I find is having the right foods in large quantities on hand. I try to cut down on the cooking by batch cooking - eating the same food for a few days- and the rest freeze in small 1 portion sizes for later use.

I shop for the fresh stuff at time when the super is empty. I found a market on our daily walk today with very few people inside and found BROWN RICE which has been in short supply. I took the opportunity to stock up on other items- especially fresh greens. I usually cook 2 bunches of greens per day for 2 people. Living in an Asian neighborhood is great because of the variety of greens, most of which I dont know the name of.

Here is my question about allowable foods:
What about polenta/ rice noodles or other non-wheat noodles/ burgul/couscous/tropical fruits/miso/edamame

Good luck on this diet to everyone. Carol

[maja]

weight: +1,3 lbs, this was a dissapointment.... I had one evening with some treats but was doing fine the rest of the week, at least I thougt I was and I thought I was loosing weight.
So for the rest of the week I'm going to keep a diary to see what I eat and what might be the things I can improve.
When i look at the 10 points, the most difficult thing for at this point me is to keep the salt low.
I wish you all a nice easter.