McDougall versus Fuhrman

[ncyg46]

i have been looking for any frozen greens in Arizona...and all they have is spinach! I guess the others are southern foods? Tried 4 different supermarkets and nobody had butternut squash, or any kind of frozen greens. Guess I have to do my own since the rv refrigerator is so small!
Tried canned one time and those are gross!

[nomikins]

Nancy, check whole foods. I saw frozen kale and other greens there today.

[ncyg46]

Nancy, check whole foods. I saw frozen kale and other greens there today.

lol...that's the thing...you are in the south! I rarely get to Whole Foods but Sprouts, Trader Joes, Fry's and Safeway have none in the west! As far as last time I was in there. I have to buy fresh and try to do something with them.....

[RawDad]

They are really similar programs... Fuhrman advocates eating enough starch to maintain your weight.. and also stresses the importance of eating quite a bit of raw whole plant food and a lotta vegetables.

Nutrient content makes a lot of sense.. not sure it can be argued with.

I would question his stance on fats however... I believe he has said a diet as high as 40% in fat can be healthy for some... and of course he advocates deriving all calories from whole foods...

How much fat is 2 much fat....? Graham also believes 10% is the max..... most athletes who track it closely ... will agree.

[Nettie]

...I would question his stance on fats however... I believe he has said a diet as high as 40% in fat can be healthy for some... and of course he advocates deriving all calories from whole foods...

That's one of my problems with his program. He's got this 6-week challenge thing going right now, with a recipe for every day emailed out. Almost every recipe calls for nuts and/or seeds. For people who have weight to lose or keep off, it's just too much.

I was never satisfied on his program; I was always hungry. McDougall works better for me.

Nettie

[chewy]

i agree nettie, mcdougall works better for me. i prefer to eat more grains/starchy veg than nuts/seeds.way more satisfying to me!

[ds1939]

Although I started following Fuhrman's regimen to reverse my arterial disease (which was extremely successful) there were other noticeable improvements. I lost 35 lbs, 165 to 130, I finally am able to control my blood pressure without medication, my energy levels have increased and my cholesterol levels are great.
I guess we are all different and not everything works for every body.

[nofriendofYale]

From what I have read about Fuhrman it seems like he is a product of the obsession with micro-nutrients that has spanned most of the last century. Micro-nutrients (vitamins and minerals) were discovered when researchers in the Far East and in the American South noticed that the poor populations, who were living on a diet of refined grains (white rice in Asia and bolted corn in America), and very little else, were getting sick. When fed whole grains instead, the sick folks had their health restored.

Thus it was discovered that the parts of the grains that were being refined out has some mysterious property that human health was dependent on. Thus vitamins were discovered.

The proper lesson to be learned from this was to stop refining grains. But that was not a profitable lesson. Too much money already invested in the refinery apparatus. Also there were at least two ways that refining grains increased profits:

-longer shelf live with less spoilage, and
-the ability to sell off the bran and germ as separate products to health food nuts and for animal feed.

So instead of learning the common sense lesson of producing only whole grains, the business folks came up with a new product which quickly became a big winner: VITAMIN PILLS. For at least the last 70 years (my life span) vitamin pills have been a multi-billion dollar industry.

Back in the 60's I was reading and following the health food guru of the day, Adele Davis. Her two big messages:

-eat as much protein as you can stuff down your gullet with the help of soy flour, wheat germ, powdered milk, and (ugh!) brewyers yeast, and
-take a pill for every known vitamin or mineral in existence.

Wrong on both counts!

Luckily I eventually turned my back on this nonsense before it did too much harm. One of the turning points occurred when Adele, my guru, announced that she had cancer, and, shortly after, died.

Fuhrman's thinking seems to be a holdover from this kind of mentality. At least he goes for vitamin-rich FOOD rather than pills. But there is the same fundamental mistake in emphasis. We easily fulfill our vitamin needs, with the possible exception of B12, when we satisfy our caloric needs on whole plant foods, especially starches.

[GeoffreyLevens]

Reading extensively on both McDougall and Fuhrman forums, it seems to me the most common reason either program "did not work for me" is the person was not following it correctly, did not understand the principles well enough. As has been pointed out many times, small differences in what you eat can make a large difference in how you feel and in the results you get (hunger, weight loss, blood test results...)

Just for clarity, Fuhrman's higher percentage of fat is ok (30? 40?) is specifically only for people in excellent health, at their weight goal, and burning massive amounts of calories w/ lots of strenuous exercise ie training for marathon, HIIT on a regular basis, mountain guides, that sort of thing. For most he advocates 1 Tbs ground flax plus one ounce of mixed, raw, unsalted seeds and nuts. More than that is really the exception for the ferocious calorie burners, and that is only once you have maxed out on your capacity to digest enough volume of other plant foods.

[vgpedlr]

Fuhrman also does not eliminate starch a la Paleo folk, just limits it for those trying to lose weight. Starch is to be adjusted according to caloric requirements after the full complement of veggies ahs been eaten. I think both McD and Fuhrman are saying almost the same thing, but approaching it from opposite sides.
McD: Starch based, with the addition of fruits and veggies
Fuhrman: Vegetable based, witht the addition of starch
The exact proportion will vary with each individual, and I find McD's approach consistently easier, and therefore more effective over the long term. As for micronutrients, Fuhrman is not preoccupied with vitamins, as the supplement industry has been for years. He is concerned with all the phytonutrients that have powerful effects in the body, many of which are undiscovered. The only way to get al of these known and unknown phytochemicals and their synergy is to eat a lot of whole, unrefined plant foods. Although he does advocate some supplementation, while McD and Novick do not.

[patty]

I feel ETL throws the baby out of the bath water.. the baby being the explanation of calorie density. I am really grateful for Jeff Novick's dvds.

Aloha, patty

[GeoffreyLevens]

I feel ETL throws the baby out of the bath water..

Strange considering Dr F strongly advocates consumption of large amounts of lowest calorie density foods for everyone and especially for those needing to loose weight!

[ncyg46]

I feel ETL throws the baby out of the bath water..

Strange considering Dr F strongly advocates consumption of large amounts of lowest calorie density foods for everyone and especially for those needing to loose weight!

and you are always hungry with the no snacks! No way can I chew 1 lb of raw and 1 lb of cooked veggies a day...or that's all I would be doing. I used to open the refrigerator and close it and not eat.

[GeoffreyLevens]

The two lbs of veg a day is very specifically to give you the idea to eat "a lot" and what that means depends on the individual. For many that is too much and for some too little... Once I pushed through the first few weeks of no snacking and started to figure out what true hunger felt like I realized that my "always hungry" was a combination of emotional eating, addiction to the process of eating, and misreading/mislabeling sensations that are not really hunger. Now I really do not get hungry for at least 3 hour on days I do very heavy workout and more like 4-5 hours on the other days. Snacking made my A1c go from 5.1 to 6.0. Once I quit snacking, but otherwise same food, it came right back down again.

[f1jim]

GeoffreyLevens
Honest, it's ok if a few people didn't find the Fuhrman diet to their liking. Really, you don't have to explain away each failure with your explanation of what they did wrong. That might be better on the Fuhrman site and not here on the McDougall site where they have expressed their favor with this plan. It doesn't mean the Fuhrman plan is fatally flawed, just wasn't some folks cup of tea. I bet you will find people on his site saying the same for McDougall. Anyway, I am glad many find this an easier program.
I know I am a snacker, all day, every day, and this program works with my eating style, although if I had issues I'd try most anything.
f1jim