Eating starches to satiation.

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Eating starches to satiation.

Postby a-great-hunger » Tue Dec 20, 2022 4:35 pm

Hello, all. I have another question regarding starches, satiety, and weight loss. A lot of times I can eat a big pile of greens and steamed veggies and my starch of choice (usually black beans and sweet potato). However, I won't feel the satiety switch "kick" even though I'm full. This is especially problematic after dinner because I will wake up at 1:00 AM and need to get more food if I don't eat until that satiation sensation occurs.

Even if I've already eaten a number of calories, should I continue eating more starches? Should I make another 50-50 plate? Sometimes I eat so many greens I feel like I'm going to explode but the satiety doesn't hit without more starches.

Edit: also, is there a particular starch I should choose like whole grains or beans, or are they qll good? I like quinoa or wheat berries with fruit, too.
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Re: Eating starches to satiation.

Postby MINNIE » Thu Dec 29, 2022 9:30 am

Maybe the best thing is to just follow the McDougall guidelines as written for a while and see how it goes.

Overthinking the details isn't necessary ( unless you really want to). But Dr.McDougall et.al. have already done the thinking on this, so we don't have to:).

Sweating the details can just hold you back from getting started.
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Re: Eating starches to satiation.

Postby Drew_ab » Sat Jan 07, 2023 6:33 pm

a-great-hunger wrote:Sometimes I eat so many greens I feel like I'm going to explode but the satiety doesn't hit without more starches.


To me you answered your own question here. Switch the ratio to include more starches and a little less of everything else. If you can do this and still be at your desired weight (or making progress towards it), then it sounds like everything is on track to me.

It takes some self-experimentation to figure out what starches you might do best with. I enjoy a large variety of starches but there are a few random nuances (i.e. for whatever reason quinoa just does not satiate me at all, so I don't rely on it heavily). There was a study at one point shown on these forums in which potatoes were actually identified as the most satiating starch. YMMV.
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Re: Eating starches to satiation.

Postby Mark Cooper » Sun Jan 08, 2023 5:56 am

Drew_ab wrote:There was a study at one point shown on these forums in which potatoes were actually identified as the most satiating starch.
I think the study included below is likely the one Drew_ab is referencing.

Holt SH, Miller JC, Petocz P, Farmakalidis E. A satiety index of common foods. Eur J Clin Nutr. 1995 Sep;49(9):675-90. PMID: 7498104.
Abstract
Objective: The aim of this study was to produce a validated satiety index of common foods.

Design and subjects: Isoenergetic 1000 kJ (240 kcal) servings of 38 foods separated into six food categories (fruits, bakery products, snack foods, carbohydrate-rich foods, protein-rich foods, breakfast cereals) were fed to groups of 11-13 subjects. Satiety ratings were obtained every 15 min over 120 min after which subjects were free to eat ad libitum from a standard range of foods and drinks. A satiety index (SI) score was calculated by dividing the area under the satiety response curve (AUC) for the test food by the group mean satiety AUC for white bread and multiplying by 100. Thus, white bread had an SI score of 100% and the SI scores of the other foods were expressed as a percentage of white bread.

Results: There were significant differences in satiety both within and between the six food categories. The highest SI score was produced by boiled potatoes (323 +/- 51%) which was seven-fold higher than the lowest SI score of the croissant (47 +/- 17%). Most foods (76%) had an SI score greater than or equal to white bread. The amount of energy eaten immediately after 120 min correlated negatively with the mean satiety AUC responses (r = -0.37, P < 0.05, n = 43) thereby supporting the subjective satiety ratings. SI scores correlated positively with the serving weight of the foods (r = 0.66, P < 0.001, n = 38) and negatively with palatability ratings (r = -0.64, P < 0.001, n = 38). Protein, fibre, and water contents of the test foods correlated positively with SI scores (r = 0.37, P < 0.05, n = 38; r = 0.46, P < 0.01; and r = 0.64, P < 0.001; respectively) whereas fat content was negatively associated (r = -0.43, P < 0.01).

Conclusion: The results show that isoenergetic servings of different foods differ greatly in their satiating capacities. This is relevant to the treatment and prevention of overweight and obesity.


This is a really great and in-depth discussion of the topic, and this post offers an overview of the numerous food qualities that affect satiety.
JeffN wrote:Second, if you have seen my Calorie Density talk, or read my articles on it, you know I stress that while calorie density is a good marker of one's likelihood to overconsume a food, it is just a number and not the only thing that impacts our over-consumption of calories. There are several other factors that I review in the lecture and here in the forum, many of which are also in the 10 Point Check-List for MWL. These include:

- The % fat

- the water content

- the fiber/cal content

- the degree of processing, such as:

- the form of the fiber (intact vs disrupted)

- the form of the food (liquid vs pureed vs solid, intact vs ground, and/or emulsified)

- the amount of chewing required.

- the variety of foods consumed (limited vs numerous) also known as “sensory specific satiety' or “the salad bar effect"

- the hyper-palatability of the food (high fat, sugar, salt, combos)


My favorite reference for how to address this issue in a particular instance for a given individual is from Jeff:
JeffN wrote:The fundamental basic principle of the MWL Program and the principles of calorie density is "whenever hungry, eat until comfortably full of the recommended foods." Because of this, there is no reason for anyone to feel hungry when following our guidelines. The recommended foods are minimally processed starches, fruits and vegetables. The most satiety, short term and long term comes from minimally processed starches and to keep the calorie density low, have them with some non-starchy vegetables. Remember, we do not have to figure out if it is true hunger, appetite, craving, etc. However, to be successful, you have to prepare for success and make sure you have availability of minimally processed starches throughout the day.

At the 10-Day program, the snack room is full of veggies (cherry tomatoes, baby carrots), fruits (apples, oranges) and starches (regular hummus, roasted red pepper hummus, potatoes, Split pea soup, Black bean soup, and Lentil Couscous soup). People choose from both the starches and fruits/vegetables. Choosing just vegetables or fruit will not be enough for most people to feel satiated. If you experience cravings for unhealthy foods, you can beat these cravings by choosing healthy foods to eat and knowing that these cravings will eventually pass and stop. However, you can not beat your biology (hunger) and your biology/hunger will eventually win.
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Re: Eating starches to satiation.

Postby Taggart » Sun Jan 08, 2023 6:49 am

I'm not on this woe, but I do take Dr. McDougall's advice in this regard:

"You can mix and match any kind of whole grains or starchy vegetables to make up these additional 600 to 900 calories daily."

https://www.drmcdougall.com/education/i ... s-monthly/
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