Italy

[sligg1]

I spent several hours on YouTube watching videos of long-lived Italians and their lifestyle. These are people who live greater than ninety-plus years. My general observations:

1. Most are overweight.
2. Most are sedentary.
3. They eat a lot of fish and meat.
4. They use copious amounts of olive oil and salt.
5. They use white flour pasta.
6. They drink a lot of wine.

And yet they live a long life. It makes me wonder where in the world does any population eat McDougall? Not even in Okinawa. If these people did eat McDougall would they live longer?

[email protected]

[sligg1]

Italy continued:

And they use butter and lots of grated cheese.

[barryoilbegone]

Average life expectancy for Italians is 83.7, not in their 90s:

https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/I ... expectancy

So you're looking at "outliers" - which there are always a few in a population, healthy or unhealthy. These people can genetically handle greater "toxic exposure" for a time. But many other people, don't forget, have died long before: related to habits like the ones you've cited.

If you do live an overweight, sedentary life as well... is that a great life? They may be long lived, but increasingly in more pain/distress from chronic health issues in the end. That's not the traditional Okinawans.

So yes: if the Italians did do McDougall style life long, they probably would live longer even then they do. It's sad now that few populations (and as you've pointed out, even Okinawa now) don't eat whole food plant based as they used to, because of globalisation and Westernisation that's taking place. The science is clear though in whole food plant based living, and its potential to reduce disease rates.

If you'd like to post what videos you've seen as well, might help in responding too, if you can.

[QubitBob]

So you're looking at "outliers" - which there are always a few in a population, healthy or unhealthy. These people can genetically handle greater "toxic exposure" for a time. But many other people, don't forget, have died long before: related to habits like the ones you've cited.

Exactly. This is why the science of statistics was invented. You have to look at large enough samples to get the real picture.

The only study I trust with regards to diet and longevity is the so-called Blue Zones project by National Geographic (see the Wikipedia article here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Zone ). This is because they required rigorous documentation (like birth certificates) to validate people's ages. And the results are clear: although none of the Blue Zones regions follows a 100% vegan diet, they are whole-food, plant-based to a far larger degree than any current Western diet. (See the chart at this link: https://tinyurl.com/395mj4x4 which shows that the diet of the Okinawan Blue Zones is definitely very McDougall-like, with 85% of the calories coming from whole-food carbs like the purple sweet potato and only 6% of the calories coming from fat.)

[sligg1]

Yes, the science is clear but science is not enough to motivate people to extend their lives living in good health. America is a classic example and so are most other countries. The world with its fat and obese populations will never change.

Okinawa may be the exception. It does come close to McDougall. But the other Blue Zone Countries, Sardinia, Ikaria from my observation are drowning in olive oil and other high-fat foods. And most of the octogenarians are overweight and/or fat.

How long do you think all our plant-based doctors will live? I won't be here to bear witness as I'm 95 and just maybe will make it to 100. And then what?

Sal Liggieri
[email protected]

[dynodan62]

I spent several hours on YouTube watching videos of long-lived Italians and their lifestyle. These are people who live greater than ninety-plus years. My general observations:

1. Most are overweight.
2. Most are sedentary.
3. They eat a lot of fish and meat.
4. They use copious amounts of olive oil and salt.
5. They use white flour pasta.
6. They drink a lot of wine.

And yet they live a long life. It makes me wonder where in the world does any population eat McDougall? Not even in Okinawa. If these people did eat McDougall would they live longer?

[email protected]

I suspect they became “overweight” due to all the fish/meat/oil/dairy & wine they consumed, and “sedentary” due to the inevitable joint damage/pain that resulted. I would also guess, that before they became old enough to retire and enjoy life, it’s likely they were much more active & ‘plant based’ than the average American, assuming they once lived a typical rural/mediterranean lifestyle (?). I doubt though that even urban Italians who grew up before/during WW2 had ready access to a lot of meat & dairy. I mean, we are discussing a culture where people once routinely walked to the market everyday to shop for fresh produce. No pizza delivery or MacDonalds drive-in temptations like we were cursed with.

[MINNIE]

Another factor is Italy's excellent universal healthcare system. Everyone is covered, and the service is high quality.
https://www.euro.who.int/en/countries/italy

In other words, they are about a century ahead of the US in that regard!

So people may be living longer due to better care, not better health or diet.
IMO a longer life that's unhealthy is not the goal to aim for when it's possible to healthy and long-lived .

It's possible that older Italians have stronger social networks looking out for their well-being and that plays a part.

There was a time when at least parts of Italy were considered "Blue Zones", due to healthy eating. Modern affluence has changed that for the worse.

[michaelswarm]

Italy like rest of EU and US is not healthy. Examples of more healthy (but not McDougall) include Loma Linda (7th Day Adventists, Blue Zone) and Mt Athos, Greece (semi independent collection of Eastern Orthodox Monasteries). Both continue their relatively healthy lifestyles while other Blue Zones like Costa Rica and Okinawa have modernized. Loma Linda exists outside of Los Angeles, bathed in US culture. Mt Athos exists almost like 1,000 years ago.

Rural Africa contains other potential healthy cultures. Not well documented, not good public health, so does not make the Blue Zones cut. But where Dr Denis Burkitt (Uganda) made his observations. Recently scientists have puzzled over why Africa has 50-100x less age adjusted Covid, even given their poor public health infrastructure. My bet is on diet and lifestyle. (I also expect Loma Linda to fare better than rest of US, when everything is over and Adventist associated scientists pore over the data.)

Knowledge is distributed unevenly. We know this. Science is clear. Yet even most doctors and dietitians don’t know this. And if people have heard the information, it is doubted and dismissed. The reasons have less to do with science, and more with politics, industry and human nature.

In life, some will be wise, and some will be foolish. There are just as many that suffer and die young, and you don’t get to see their videos. We learn their lessons or we repeat their mistakes.

My girlfriend died of cancer at forty-two. That was what started me on serious study of health. Congratulations at reaching 95.

[Chumly]

I wonder if the statistics have caught up with the changes in diet and lifestyle. You may be looking at statistics from decades ago. The changes in diet and lifestyle may take decades to understand the outcome of the relatively recent shift from a more traditional diet to one higher in animal products and processed food while being lower in fresh produce and a more primitive lifestyle.

Michael

[Dougalling]

They may be alive but are they pain free and healthy ... or ... are they dealing with pain and disease. It isn´t just about longevity but also quality of life.