When did doctors go so wrong?!

[Skip]

Our day is coming.

Ruby and the Romantics said that over 50 years ago!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfnEoou-FKU

[PotatoPotahto]

I've never been a big fan of doctors and lately I've been wondering why absolutely everyone seems to be saying "ask your doctor" about every little change we make in life (maybe except for Dr. McDougall). I keep thinking - when did we become so dependent on the medical system for every little thing?? A system that's so dangerous to our health and our finances.

Recently, I went to a Doctor of Osteopathy thinking that would be different (as they claim). He interrogated me for 20 minutes, mumbled something, and sent me on my way. On the way home the pharmacy I gave them called me and said my prescription was ready. What? We hadn't discussed a script!

Turns out he made his diagnosis and prescribed me something I didn't really want w/o discussing it with me at all. I wanted him to give me a physical and he barely examined me at all. He couldn't even do this simple thing.

Even WFPB docs have been ultra disappointing. I consulted one and he kept throwing it back to me asking me what I wanted to do. I said I don't know, that's why I'm here. I couldn't pin him on a specific course of action so I just gave up and fumbled along on my own.

Another one told me to "suck it up and just force yourself to eat the food" when I told her I was struggling and needed help.

I've gotten more out of a few of Jeff Novick's posts on here than any of the consultations I've had with doctors. That and Dr. McDougall and Lyle's webinar videos and everything else that we are SO lucky to have available to us for free.

The information is out there - I think we just need to scrounge up the continual motivation and courage to keep digging for it to find our OWN diagnosis and treatment.

I think for the most part, we need to be our OWN doctor. Sure, if you have a broken arm or something like that you go in. Otherwise you had better do your own research because it sure seems that we are mostly on our own with this stuff!

And this isn't even getting into the mental health industry....

[bbq]

>> the point of that is it is arguably while it is definitely the most common communication to consumers in the biggest industry it was thought to be the most vibrant while working economy on the planet explanation of benefits. united healthcare, there are tens of millions every year. we in this room don't understand it but the ceo of the company doesn't understand it. how can that be, how can you have a system like that? this comes back to my first point when the system is unaccountable they can basically do what they want.

Is the medical profession the only one that's still getting paid whether the customers are doing any better or otherwise? The performance (or lack thereof) and each patient's outcome really have nothing to do with the price tag whatsoever:

Association of Hospital Prices for Coronary Artery Bypass Grafting With Hospital Quality and Reimbursement
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5450906/
http://circoutcomes.ahajournals.org/content/8/Suppl_2/A208

Very interestingly, this cost really has no relationship to the quality of outcomes or the quality of care that people receive. Whether you spend $75,000 or $375,000, there's not really good data that shows that the high cost places actually produce any better outcomes.

And then if the customers were coming back with the same problems after the initial treatments have failed to get things done, how come those customers couldn't ask for their money back while having to pay again after paying for nothing in the first place?

In addition, there will be no responsibility or accountability whatsoever no matter how many mistakes were made:

Medical Care: The Third Leading Cause of Death
https://nutritionfacts.org/2016/11/10/medical-care-the-third-leading-cause-of-death/

When people go into the hospital, they’re going to have problems. The only question is, which one? Statistically, there are so many errors in hospitals that the average works out to one error per patient per day at the minimum. If you’re in a hospital for four days, you can expect four medical errors in that time. In fact, hospitals are so dangerous now that you see signs in the hallway and in patient rooms reminding staff to wash their hands.

And then we better bring someone to keep an eye on everything or else they're gonna get away with anything they want:

The next thing that you can do is demand to be addressed by your title. Do not let them call you by your first name. You are a Mr., Ms., Mrs., or a Dr. This is a small point seemingly, but it can actually change your care.

Another thing that people need to do when they go into the hospital, and I got this from a nurse herself, she said, “Bring a guard. I would never let a family member go into the hospital alone. Make absolutely sure that a friend or family member is with them 24 hours a day.”

What does this do? It makes sure that mistakes aren’t made, or if mistakes are made, you’ve got a witness. At the very least, the person is going to have some company. That’s something we can do. Not everybody has an advocate. Not everybody has family members available, but this is still a doable situation.

What else can we do about hospitals? We can avoid them. We can ensure to avoid them as much as we can. How do we do that? In an earlier interview, we went over a lot of steps that people can do, so they won’t need them. Hospitals are terrific for traumatic care and for acute care. They do a really, really good job in saving lives when it’s a sudden bleeding emergency. But in terms of chronic care, they’re terrible. In terms of the illnesses that most people have to endure that cost the most money, that last the longest, and ultimately die from – hospitals have a poor record.

http://youtu.be/gWo8zSlKUAI#t=385

[petmomful]

All very interesting and profound points of view. I am going to check all the links. Thank you for those. I am not sure I am ready to let doctors off so easily yet, tho. lol Who would want to be in a profession that in many cases you are wasting your time, and just spinning around in circles, trying to treat people who do not really get better? Why can't they still be doctors, and yet inform their patients about nutrition? There will still be plenty of sick people to treat. I also feel very strongly at this point that avoiding them, and hospitals, is the way to go.

Once when I told my PC physician that I was in so much pain I could not get thru a work day, he told me, and I am not lying, to take a wire coat hanger, stretch it out, and use it to do my job!! At this point I told him that he was not living in reality. He got mad and walked out. I stopped seeing him. I kept fantasizing that I would go in there, and they would all be walking around with wire coat hangers, trying to get their work done, and I would have to yell, "NO WIRE HANGERS!"

Yesterday I was a my granddaughter's birthday party, around the pool. We were there for hours so they ordered pizza. I said, no, I did not want any pizza. This was my family, so they know I am vegan. My son in law told me Dominos has a cheese free, veggie pizza, so I gave in and he ordered me one. It was yummy. But I heard my kids commenting, that looks pretty good, but it would be a lot better with lots of cheese! They still cannot understand why I would give up cheese. But I did not miss it at all! It looked so greasy on their pizzas. And later, they encouraged me to jump into the pool, something I could NOT do last summer because of all the pain I was in. I did literally JUMP in with glee! I had a wonderful day, much better than last summerl. It is so worth it.

[Willijan]

quote from petmomful:

"I also feel very strongly at this point that avoiding them, and hospitals, is the way to go."


That is what Dr. McDougall very strongly recommends on one of his videos. And remember, he didn't go to the hospital when he broke a bone (pelvis?) a year or so ago.


And then there is H. Gilbert Welch. Here is his faculty profile from Dartmouth:

"Adjunct Professor of Public Policy, Professor of Medicine at TDI for the Geisel School of Medicine, Associate Professor of Business Administration at Tuck School of Business

H. Gilbert Welch, MD, MPH, is a general internist and Adjunct Professor of Public Policy at the Nelson A. Rockefeller Center who teaches Public Policy 26: Health Policy and Clinical Practice. Dr Welch’s research focuses on the problems created by medicine’s efforts to detect disease early: physicians test too often, treat too aggressively and tell too many people that they are sick. He is the author of Should I be Tested for Cancer? Maybe Not and Here’s Why (UC Press 2004), Overdiagnosed: Making People Sick in the Pursuit of Health (Beacon Press 2011) and Less Medicine, More Health: 7 Assumptions that Drive Too Much Medical Care (Beacon Press 2015)"

I have read Dr. Welch's books Overdiagnosed and Less Medicine, More Health. Very readable and informative. They tell me to be careful about seeing doctors unnecessarily or following their directions (Rx and tests) without great care.

I think avoiding doctors when possible is basic to our way of life. But of course, there are times when one needs to go, and times when doctors are very helpful and essential.

[Willijan]

Put yourself in the doctors shoes....To make it work financially you schedule appointments every 10-15 minutes, you do the best those precious minutes allow, you treat patients knowing almost zero about nutrition and health. Your source of information comes primarily from the drug companies, you only get reimbursed for "conventional treatments.
Now, do you get an understanding of the position doctors are in? They are no more or less evil as any one else in the health care world. They use what they are trained in, making use of the resources they have on hand. That means almost nobody is going to be successfully healed of chronic disease. Is it their fault? No more or less than any of the other players....Pharmaceutical companies, insurance companies, and the patients themselves. All make critical errors in fixing the main issues we face.
Those of us blessed with a bit more insight as to the issues are a very small group. We are a growing group, though. We will expect and demand changes as our voices grow louder and the system crumbles under it's own weight.
Our day is coming.
f1jim

I agree with you Jim. But from my perspective and from petmomful's original post on this thread, that is not what the discussion here was originally about. There is a difference between doctors in general and some individual doctors. I do not blame doctors for not basing their treatments on knowledge of a good diet and the wide-ranging health improvements that could make. Our whole system is to blame for that problem, not individuals.

What I criticize is those individual doctors, of whom I have encountered many, who are really arrogant, act like they are not human, and do not respect their patients. Often they try to intimidate their patients, do not provide proper treatment, do not answer questions. I thought petmomful's original post described an instance of this type of problem very well.

[f1jim]

I believe that's a universal problem in people providing professional services. Many times it comes from being in the industry too long. Years of seeing the same issues, the same problems, and having many telling doctors the way they need to be treated. It's not a good excuse for poor bedside manner but it can happen to anyone in the business.
One of the most positive things happening in the medical profession is the number of women pursuing this career. My experience is that female doctors are better listeners and more contemplative about treatments. Many of my friends have come to the same conclusion. When we get them teaching in medical schools we will make even more progress.
f1jim

[petmomful]

I certainly don't mind if we swing off a bit with the topic. It is all useful and valuable to make us think, and express our opinions and feelings. However, I have to agree with Willijan. I have occasionally met people in every profession that are incredibly arrogant, and think they know it all. (Of course, I do not hang around with rich CEO's or people like that.) But I have never experienced this much "god behavior" until I got in heavily with doctors, especially pain management doctors. I was stunned at what jerks they were. No empathy, no compassion. Terrible staff not even capable of making an appointment. Maybe part of it was because they had the "power" to hand out narcotics. Suddenly, I was suspected of criminal activity. Am I trying to get drugs from more than one source? Am I taking too much? Am I an addict? Am I selling them on the street? Suddenly I was a suspected felon and a doctor shopper, and a loser trying to get disability!! (Quote from 2 doctors: Don't ask me for disability, I will not help you get disability, I don't believe in it, there is always something you can do.) Note: I had not asked for disability. I had my first and last panic attack after the last pain doctor I saw. I also called the DEA to confirm what he had implied, that I could not get pain meds unless I continued to get injections. The DEA said that was a lie. My GP told me that that is where they make most of their money, so they push injections. I never came home and sobbed after seeing an arrogant banker, or mechanic, but I sure did after seeing these doctors!

PotatoPotahto, I agree with you! Every drug commercial, every exercise program, every diet, says to check with your doctor! Some of it is to cover their butt, but it gets overbearing, like we are not capable of making any decisions without checking with our doctor! My mom was like that with her priest, but hey, that is REALLY off topic! lol And yes, we should get our money back if we don't get better! Wouldn't that be a hoot!

[bbq]

Can't really blame them for reacting like that even if someone weren't asking for disability, it's such a major fraud in this country (and Europe) already:

https://www.drmcdougall.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=53479#p545687

I tasted the power of opioids, and discovered how they became our go-to drug
http://www.bradenton.com/opinion/opn-columns-blogs/article163928687.html

One in Three Americans Took Prescription Opioid Painkillers in 2015, Survey Says
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/americas-heroin-epidemic/one-three-americans-took-prescription-opioid-painkillers-2015-survey-says-n788246

Red Lake Indian Reservation declares public health emergency over drug epidemic
http://www.startribune.com/red-lake-indian-reservation-declares-public-health-emergency-over-drug-epidemic/436633673/

White House Commission on Opioids to Trump: Declare a National Emergency
http://raps.org/Regulatory-Focus/News/2017/07/31/28150/White-House-Commission-on-Opioids-to-Trump-Declare-a-National-Emergency/

Draft Opioid Commission Report
https://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/whitehouse.gov/files/ondcp/commission-interim-report.pdf

According to the Centers for Disease Control (CDC), the most recent data estimates that 142 Americans die every day from a drug overdose. Our citizens are dying. We must act boldly to stop it. The opioid epidemic we are facing is unparalleled. The average American would likely be shocked to know that drug overdoses now kill more people than gun homicides and car crashes combined. In fact, between 1999 and 2015, more than 560,000 people in this country died due to drug overdoses – this is a death toll larger than the entire population of Atlanta. As we have all seen, opioids are a prime contributor to our addiction and overdose crisis. In 2015, nearly two-thirds of drug overdoses were linked to opioids like Percocet, OxyContin, heroin, and fentanyl. This is an epidemic that all Americans face because here is the grim reality: Americans consume more opioids than any other country in the world. In fact, in 2015, the amount of opioids prescribed in the U.S. was enough for every American to be medicated around the clock for three weeks.

In 2011, the Institute of Medicine (IOM) reported that over 100 million Americans are affected by chronic pain, costing the nation up to $635 billion each year in healthcare and lost productivity costs.

Isn't that actually necessary in terms of supporting the economy since we've gotta rely on sick people who are taking drugs for the rest of their lives?

Drug companies couldn't care less about the deaths anyways, they'll keep selling whatever they want and laugh all the way to the bank. In the end it's just addictive substances like processed junk loaded with SOS, alcohol, and tobacco etc.

[Spiral]

I think doctors often are deserving of criticism. On the other hand, the demand for their services does not seem to be declining, except perhaps among the tiny minority of people who have chosen to embrace a healthy lifestyle.

It's like what Dr. Dean Ornish says about mopping the floor while failing to turn off the water source that causing water to spill onto the floor.

People continue to engage in unhealthy eating habits and the "solution" to problems that inevitably result is to see a doctor. The doctor really has no "solutions," only "problem management options" to offer.

At this point you could say that the doctors should encourage their patients to change their lifestyle. But in a society where nearly everyone is engaging in unhealthy lifestyles, the doctor sees the patient's unhealthy lifestyle not as "unhealthy" but as "normal." So, high blood pressure is considered to be the consequence of aging, not a crummy diet.

It is the unusual physician, a Dr. McDougall, who decides to read up on a the last 100 years of nutrition studies, something that can't be learned from the limited nutrition courses in medical school, if they are offered at all. It's like Dr. Greger said, when he applied to a medical school. A pediatrician told him that nutrition had no significant impact on human health. Dr. McDougall and Dr. Greger are unusual and exceptional in that they have an interest in nutrition.

When you see a normal doctor, you aren't seeing evil, just normal human behavior.

[patty]

I loved one of the links BBQ suggested posted taking a bodyguard with you when going to the hospital (ER). I wonder if didi would still be posting if she did that. She had posted her daughter worked as a CEO for a medical institution and of course she would be embedded in the system. didi being dibetic made it all the more dangerous to their basic procedures. I learned so much from didi and share her story when I can. I have had Clients whose had a family member in the system and they were didn't benefit in the least. It was the exact opposite.

Aloha, Patty

[petmomful]

Patty, are you saying that people with an "advocate" in the medical system get worse care, deliberately?

Again, I am not letting doctors off that easily. Too bad that they did not have nutrition in medical school. That does not mean that they should not keep learning. They are supposed to be doctors, not only for money, but to genuinely help others. That does not mean that they get to assume that you are looking for disability, or are a drug addict. In fact many many people become drug addicts because they just hand them out like candy. I count myself as a VERY lucky person that I did not get addicted. I was given pretty much every narcotic possible. Sometimes I was talked into taking them. Sometimes I refused them. I often questioned them. Sometimes I was supposed to take 2 different kinds each day, a practice that made me very ill. That does not mean that they can become complacent in how they treat people, and look down on people. Perhaps you have to experience this kind of strong doctor abuse firsthand to get as fed up with doctors as I am. I freely admit that I am resentful of the way I was treated, the pain I went thru at their hands, the mistakes that were made on me, the way I was not listened to, and the way I had to PAY for all this that did me much more harm than good. I went thru, not only a LOT of physical pain and stress from all of this treatment, but a great deal of emotional pain and stress as well. I had no quality of life, but they did not care about that at all. I remember once I was given oxycontin and vicodin to take on the same day. I ended up in the ER. When I went back to the doctor, and told her what happened, her solution was to give me morphine and vicodin! All I said was, "NO!" I mean, duh!! You can all probably tell from my posts that I am really pissed off at (most) doctors!

When I was working as a reg. veterinary technician, (a vet. nurse), I did not say, "Well, I did not learn that in school, so I won't bother to read up on it, or let the vet instruct me on a new or amazing or humane technique. I gladly soaked it all up because I wanted to do the best job possible. I just find it so hard to believe that deep down inside, doctors do not know that, "you are what you eat."

[patty]

Patty, are you saying that people with an "advocate" in the medical system get worse care, deliberately?

What I am saying at first I thought if you know personally whoever you were dealing with you would be safe, especially if their position was to govern the position whose care you are in. Because they would know what is for health and what is for financial gain and they would even be more accountable. I was wrong. The whole system has to be changed. Doctors are conditioned they are beyond approach. As long as the money is coming in they are safe regardless of the continuous harm they are doing. Their safety comes first.

Aloha, Patty


Today's doctor is the modern day village voodoo doctor. If they are like Dr. McDougall and have figured out there is no money to be made in healing chronic illness because it is food borne. They are outlawed. I found a vegan gyn, as I was hurt lifting someone, and I was so happy but he knew nothing of self-care. I was fortunate someone on this site shared about WholeWoman inc. Where I was able to do my own research.

[bbq]

It's almost amusing to realize what we've been doing to "manage" the pain when in reality the body is screaming to get our attention:

"Goddammit you stupid idiot, just stop stuffing your face with all that junk or else you're gonna die from eating such garbage."

The next thing you know we're resorting to numb the pain with addictive substances and then some of us are actually killed by the drugs before our poor dietary choices seal the deal.

And then there's another road less traveled but at least that wouldn't be a dead end for a very long time:

Plant-Based Diets for Fibromyalgia
https://nutritionfacts.org/2013/06/27/plant-based-diets-for-fibromyalgia/

Treating Breast Pain with Diet
https://nutritionfacts.org/2013/11/07/treating-breast-pain-with-diet/

Preventing & Treating Low Back Pain With Diet
https://nutritionfacts.org/2016/08/11/preventing-and-treating-low-back-pain-with-diet/

[Spiral]

I went thru, not only a LOT of physical pain and stress from all of this treatment, but a great deal of emotional pain and stress as well. I had no quality of life, but they did not care about that at all. I remember once I was given oxycontin and vicodin to take on the same day. I ended up in the ER. When I went back to the doctor, and told her what happened, her solution was to give me morphine and vicodin! All I said was, "NO!" I mean, duh!! You can all probably tell from my posts that I am really pissed off at (most) doctors!

I understand your anger and frustration. If I had experienced what you have, I would feel the same way.

My experience has been different. But I have not had to rely as much on doctors as you have.

However, in 2007, I had problems with my esophagus and went to the E.R. I got treated by a GI doctor, who put me on a Proton Pump Inhibitor, but only for a limited time.

This GI doctor did not tell me to go on a plant based diet, even though the irritation to my esophagus was due to ingesting Prime Rib.

Also in 2007, I was diagnosed with PSVT (occasional rapid heart rate the upper chambers of the heart). I got coronary ablation to fix it and it has been fixed ever since.

Still, the EPS specialist and the cardiologist did not suggest a plant based diet. My family practice doctor at the time told me to go on a low carb diet. He truly believed in what he was saying. He was sincere and in all other respects, I think he was a good doctor. All of my other (minor) health issues, he handled perfectly, it seems.

So, I think relying on doctors for health is somewhat of a crapshoot. Ones odds are better if it's an infection, which they can treat fairly easily. But you are in tough shape if you have type 2 diabetes because the doctors might tell you go to low carb, which will make things worse.

Should they be like Dr. McDougall and you (as a vet tech)? Sure. But most won't and their patience will not notice. And even if they did, they'd be treated like our "in house" physician, who is told he's being too preachy about plant based nutrition.