Heart Attack Proof ?

[robert2957]

Does anyone apart from Dr. Esselstyn believe that it is possible to become "Heart Attack Proof" by adopting appropriate lifestyle changes?

[pundit999]

Claiming that a person becomes heart attack proof on this diet is done for the shock value or branding.

But it us not that far from the truth. Of course dr esselstyn has demonstrated that almost no one had an adverse effect on his diet ( 1 in 200) but people that stay on the sad have as much as 20 to 30 percent risk.

Dr dean ornish has documented a similar effect. Pritikin did too. Also dr kempner did so decades ago.

We see it all the time on this forum.

Why ask this question? What is the choice anyway? This is the best treatment there is.

[Chikiwing]

Why ask this question? What is the choice anyway? This is the best treatment there is.

I don't believe in heart attack proof, or cancer proof, or anything proof. No guarantees in anything is my opinion. There are always exceptions.

But, I think you can stack things up in your corner very favorable by eating a plant based diet. I think it's the best you can do and it's a whole lot towards good health.

[f1jim]

I believe the demographic data is the strongest evidence for the ability to avoid heart attacks. There have been, and still are places that just don't get heart attacks. (Never 100%) Their diet is protective for the vast majority of people. It makes sense to assume eating that way bestows those same benefits. But NOTHING in life is 100%. But enough to certainly make it worth the change.
People needing 100% numbers are looking for a way out. They will always have that opportunity.
f1jim

[Poison Ivy]

All you can do is reduce risk as much as you can. You can not say with 100% certainty eating a WFPB diet will heart attack proof you. It will IMO make it a lot less likely to have a HA from CAD.

[John McDougall]

I think it is too much to claim "absolute."

Most us came to a healthy diet after many years of serious dietary abuse (in addition to other bad habits). Residual damage persists.

Furthermore, there are many promoters of disease that are unavoidable these days, such a environmental pollution.

I know it was once true that breast, colon, and prostate cancer did not exist in rural Africa and Asia (more than 50 to 100 years ago).

I also know that heart disease was once unknown except among the wealthy in various populations (see: https://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2011nl ... yptian.htm).

No doubt drastic changes in risk of disease and premature death follow introduction of the diet I recommend. But claims that guarantee absolute benefit a far beyond what I could boast.

John McDougall, MD

[colonyofcells]

Being heart attack proof probably violates the laws of thermodynamics.

[Dwight]

I think it is too much to claim "absolute."

Most us came to a healthy diet after many years of serious dietary abuse (in addition to other bad habits). Residual damage persists.

Furthermore, there are many promoters of disease that are unavoidable these days, such a environmental pollution.

I know it was once true that breast, colon, and prostate cancer did not exist in rural Africa and Asia (more than 50 to 100 years ago).

I also now that heart disease was once unknown except among the wealthy in various populations (see: https://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2011nl ... yptian.htm).

No doubt drastic changes in risk of disease and premature death follow introduction of the diet I recommend. But claims that guarantee absolute benefit a far beyond what I could boast.

John McDougall, MD

Hello I'm not arguing that the McDougall Program is tops.

I preach "McDougall". However recently I received an intelligent argument that I lacked the scientific/medical training to rebut.

I was encouraging a man with severe diabetes and coronary disease to switch to McDougall. I borrowed him my McDougall library.

A week later I met him at his shop to inquire how he was doing. He gave me a book by Dr. Richard Bernstein MD called the Diabetes Solution.

Briefly Dr. Bernstein is a diabetes specialist. He states that low carb is "the way to go". He does encourage the consumption of low carb vegetables.

What is amazing are his blood numbers, also that he is in 80's. His HDL is around 140 (not a typo). His LDL is startingly low. And his diabetes is strictly controlled.

In his book he explains how this was accomplished.

I would like to understand this phenomenon. Can he be a "genetic anomaly"? I wonder because he was in terrible condition prior to his rigid low carb diet.

My blood sugar never gets as low as Dr Bernstein's who would say that I consume "too much rice".

I intend to remain a McDougaller. However I'd like to comprehend this and explain the paradox.

Thank you

[f1jim]

First and foremost you can't use a single example as strong evidence of anything. We don't use the example of a single smoker, heavy drinker, etc, to promote those activities.
Thee is good data on the experience of people following low carb diets. There is worldwide data on the experience of people eating high carb diets. There is clinical data for both. That's what we use as evidence.
Dwight, you joined us several years ago and this is your first post. Stick with us a while and dig into the website and look at the data presented for this way of eating. I am sure you will find it compelling.
f1jim

[Dwight]

Thank you

I hear what you are saying.

My Grandma smoked cigars and loved raw bacon. She died at 95. Of course we cannot say that cigars and raw bacon prolonged her life. Or are harmless.

My quandary, after reading Bernstein's book is an explanation of the turn around in Dr Bernstein's health.

I do not say "no" to McDougall. Definitely I do not say "yes" to low carb.

I want to understand "what is going on".

In the Bernstein book he extols vegetables. Somewhere he indicates (or seems to indicate) a caution regarding saturated fat.

My little mind struggles with outliers.

[f1jim]

There are outliers for every aspect of life. We can choose to focus on them or step back and look at the broader picture.
As far as low card, the data suggests an immediate improvement at a long term cost. Examine the data and see what exactly those long term costs are. Longevity will suffer and so will the conditions they are changing the diet for in the first place.
Everybodys biomarkers improve leaving the standard western diet. The typical diet is so bad anything is an improvement with the addition of more fruits and vegetables. But low carb violates basic tenants of good human health and the long term results reflect that.
f1jim

[trotskyite]

As I was a type2 diabetic and have now shown complete reversal I would question whether people on a low carb diet are just treating the symptoms eg high blood glucose. Most type2 diabetics that I see (there are a lot) who follow this low carb advice stay obese yet are happy they keep their glucose near the normal range. I'm sure people's cholesterol levels are a bell curve and this Dr may be on one end, most are not.
True reversal of diabetes means I can eat 2lb of potatoes and keep my glucose below 106. I have normal glycemia . However are these people who eat low carb attaining health or "healthy" numbers? Time will tell no doubt, but my money is on Mcdougall. I have seen a good few low carb paleo advocates die of stroke and heart attack I'm yet to see this happen to a low fat plant based Dr. Who knows maybe I will?

[patty]

Thank you

I hear what you are saying.

My Grandma smoked cigars and loved raw bacon. She died at 95. Of course we cannot say that cigars and raw bacon prolonged her life. Or are harmless.

My quandary, after reading Bernstein's book is an explanation of the turn around in Dr Bernstein's health.

I do not say "no" to McDougall. Definitely I do not say "yes" to low carb.

I want to understand "what is going on".

In the Bernstein book he extols vegetables. Somewhere he indicates (or seems to indicate) a caution regarding saturated fat.

My little mind struggles with outliers.

Dr. McDougall in his MS online video explains the fat and oil, goes directly to the cell, wraps itself around the cell, creating a sticky substance where it loses the ability to repel the other cells, creating a sludge in the blood vessel, breaking the brain barrier. I am sure you remember when you washed your dishes in the past, the fat and oil on the plates and pans stuck to the sides of sink. What we feed our heart, feeds our mind and our entire body. The fat you eat is the fat you wear. Some people stay sick to teach us how to get well as some get well to teach us how to get well. Once you get this is like being a player, you never go back to being a rookie. Addiction is a thinking disease, because it tells the addict they don't have a disease. Starch creates the satiety to think it through. We reside in the best lab there is, it doesn't lie and is our best ally. Keep it simple.

Dr. McDougall's MS online video: http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Dr. ... &FORM=VIRE

Aloha, patty

[Dwight]

Thank you

I hear what you are saying.

My Grandma smoked cigars and loved raw bacon. She died at 95. Of course we cannot say that cigars and raw bacon prolonged her life. Or are harmless.

My quandary, after reading Bernstein's book is an explanation of the turn around in Dr Bernstein's health.

I do not say "no" to McDougall. Definitely I do not say "yes" to low carb.

I want to understand "what is going on".

In the Bernstein book he extols vegetables. Somewhere he indicates (or seems to indicate) a caution regarding saturated fat.

My little mind struggles with outliers.

Dr. McDougall in his MS online video explains the fat and oil, goes directly to the cell, wraps itself around the cell, creating a sticky substance where it loses the ability to repel the other cells, creating a sludge in the blood vessel, breaking the brain barrier. I am sure you remember when you washed your dishes in the past, the fat and oil on the plates and pans stick to the sides of sink. What we feed our heart, feeds our mind and our entire body. The fat you eat is the fat you wear. Some people stay sick to teach us how to get well as some get well to teach us how to get well. Once you get this is like being a player, you never go back to being a rookie. Addiction is a thinking disease, because it tells the addict they don't have a disease. Starch creates the satiety to think it through. Our body doesn't lie, it is our best lab and ally.

Aloha, patty

Thank you Patty.

You are in a thought streaming mode. I love your "fat on the sides of the sink" metaphor.

I'm not sure about the other generalities. Some other time we can debate whether addiction is a thinking disease or whether addiction is grounded fundamentally in biology. I'm reading a book by a psychoanalyst Dr Dodes whose premise is that addiction is a thinking disease. Gabor Mate MD has written that addiction has clear biological under-pinnings.

None of the foregoing explains the excellent blood numbers of Dr. Bernstein. You state the fat you eat is the fat you wear. Presumably you are also referring to the fat clogging arteries. This is contradicted by Dr Bernstein's HDL reading of about 140 which is astounding.

more questions than answers. So what else is new?

[patty]

Thank you

I hear what you are saying.

My Grandma smoked cigars and loved raw bacon. She died at 95. Of course we cannot say that cigars and raw bacon prolonged her life. Or are harmless.

My quandary, after reading Bernstein's book is an explanation of the turn around in Dr Bernstein's health.

I do not say "no" to McDougall. Definitely I do not say "yes" to low carb.

I want to understand "what is going on".

In the Bernstein book he extols vegetables. Somewhere he indicates (or seems to indicate) a caution regarding saturated fat.

My little mind struggles with outliers.

Dr. McDougall in his MS online video explains the fat and oil, goes directly to the cell, wraps itself around the cell, creating a sticky substance where it loses the ability to repel the other cells, creating a sludge in the blood vessel, breaking the brain barrier. I am sure you remember when you washed your dishes in the past, the fat and oil on the plates and pans stick to the sides of sink. What we feed our heart, feeds our mind and our entire body. The fat you eat is the fat you wear. Some people stay sick to teach us how to get well as some get well to teach us how to get well. Once you get this is like being a player, you never go back to being a rookie. Addiction is a thinking disease, because it tells the addict they don't have a disease. Starch creates the satiety to think it through. Our body doesn't lie, it is our best lab and ally.

Aloha, patty

Thank you Patty.

You are in a thought streaming mode. I love your "fat on the sides of the sink" metaphor.

I'm not sure about the other generalities. Some other time we can debate whether addiction is a thinking disease or whether addiction is grounded fundamentally in biology. I'm reading a book by a psychoanalyst Dr Dodes whose premise is that addiction is a thinking disease. Gabor Mate MD has written that addiction has clear biological under-pinnings.

None of the foregoing explains the excellent blood numbers of Dr. Bernstein. You state the fat you eat is the fat you wear. Presumably you are also referring to the fat clogging arteries. This is contradicted by Dr Bernstein's HDL reading of about 140 which is astounding.

more questions than answers. So what else is new?

I feel with Dr. McDougall time is on our side, once you have the understanding genetics is the gun and lifestyle pulls the trigger. I work as a home health aide, and I am gifted as my Client's are my best teachers. If you haven't read Dr. McDougall's Digestion Tune-Up be sure too. When Dr. McDougall was debating someone, a low carb advocate. He asked two questions, "How's your breath?" "How is your digestion?" Remember we are all dealers, don't buy the masquerade. When Dr. McDougall shared there was no money to be made from chronic illness, because it is food borne. There is no greater truth. The biological metabolic dollar of fat and oil stops with Dr. McDougall. Life is about the giving non-losing principle. It is a WOE currency. Wishing you the best. I will have to check out the books you mentioned. Mahalo!

Aloha, patty