Exercise, Health and You: How much is Enough? (A response)

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Exercise, Health and You: How much is Enough? (A response)

Postby Gershon » Mon Oct 26, 2015 6:23 am

This is a response to @JeffN 's post in his thread. I took the time to read all the research articles in the latest post as well as the ones in the previous posts in the thread. Although I don't disagree with any of the studies presented, I do think the application is too complicated and lends itself to dilution which results in too little exercise.

Here is the conclusion Jeff made:

@JeffN said:You can sum this all up by simply saying - Aim for 30-60 minutes per day, most days of the week (5-6), which will depend on intensity, and will include both aerobic and resistance training. Another way to look at it is, 150 to 300 minutes per week. The inclusion of some balance, flexibility work is also recommended as is a few intervals.

I do not know of any doctor in this field who recommends more than these guidelines as part of any of these programs. The one program that incorporates the most formal exercise is Pritikin, and they use the above guidelines.


First, let's look at what the Pritikin Longevity Center says now.

The Pritikin Exercise Plan recommends 30 to 90 minutes of cardiovascular conditioning 6 days a week (7 days if you have diabetes), at 70 to 80% of your maximum predicted heart rate, also known as your Target Heart Rate Zone.


If there was not other research to support my disagreement with this exercise range, I would think Jeff and I looked at different references and ignore it. I'll address the source of my disagreement later.

The most comprehensive studies on the effects of exercise on health were, and are continuing to be done, by Dr. Ken Cooper. To be clear, he stated that exercise alone will not improve lifespan, but it would improve the quality of life. Unfortunately, Jim Fixx gave Dr. Cooper a bad image by dying young. He was not following the Aerobics exercise plan, and his diet was terrible. It was an indication to Dr. Cooper to investigate diet, and he has done that.

I've been following the Aerobics plan since 1975. Sometimes formally, and sometimes informally like not counting calories and knowing how much to eat. Sometimes, I've gotten lazy and noticed a rapid decline in my health. I instituted a mandatory Aerobics plan at Vance Air Force Base in about 1983. It was unique, because commanders had to give duty time for exercise.

With the popularity of pedometers, the CDC program has been diluted by including exercise during the normal course of the day. Dr. Cooper never did this. All exercise was above the normal activities of the day. Pedometers will give activity minutes for 10 minutes of sustained activity. Some of them start at 1 minute. Using a pedometer to count these activity minutes counts minutes that weren't included in Dr. Cooper's research.

I don't disagree with the CDC's recommendations, but I do feel they lend themselves to inflation by the user. They have also inflated the benefits by calling a "brisk walk" as over 3 miles an hour. To me, "brisk" should be faster than average, and in my observation most healthy people walk between 3 and 3.5 mph. But I need proof, or it's my observation and no more.

Dr. Cooper's Aerobics Points System takes away all the guesswork. He first published it in 1968, republished it in 1982, and it is still in use today. It gives point values for many exercises based on intensity and duration. It is based on personal study of over 100,000 people. It's a simple system that does match well with the CDC recommendation if one eliminates exercise done as a routine part of the day. For good health, get 30 aerobics points a week. For optimum health, get 60 aerobics points a week. People who attain more do so for reasons other than fitness.

The key benefit with the Aerobics Point system is it assigns point values for many different types of exercise. There is no guesswork.

Using walking as an example, for a person to earn one aerobics point, they have to walk a mile between 3 and 4 mph without stopping. The point values go up as more miles are walked consecutively. My normal morning walk is now six miles which earns 11 aerobics points. Usually, I walk about 42 miles a week over and above my normal daily routine. My daily routine incorporates an average of four or five additional miles. Dr. Cooper would not have included these four or five miles in his research. The CDC would. Or at least that seems to be the result of people using pedometers.

In my opinion, all three of these systems (Pritikin, CDC and Dr. Cooper) lack significant safety constraints and effectiveness constraints, but two of them (CDC and Dr. Cooper) can be merged into a system that is safe and effective by using research done by Dr. Maffetone. In his best book, The Big Book of Endurance Training and Racing, Dr. Maffetone explains that aerobic training takes place in The Aerobic Training Zone. This is a heart beat rate of 180 minus a person's age to 10 beats below this. There are some adjustments, but they are minor. Below this range, there is minimal aerobic training, and just a few beats above this results in anaerobic training. A person who trains only in the anaerobic range like the Pritikin Longevity Center recommends can have poor aerobic health.

There are two safety valves with the Maffetone Method. The first is doing most or all exercise in The Aerobic Training Zone. The second is doing a Maximum Aerobic Function (MAF) test every three or four weeks. The athlete walks, jogs, or runs five miles while in The Aerobic Training Zone. Times are recorded each mile. If the times start getting slower, it's likely the athlete is over training. It can be due to too much exercise or other stresses in a person's life. Either way, it's time to cut back on the exercise. There are other tests for other forms of exercise.

I don't agree with Dr. Maffetone's dietary recommendations.

Summary

1. The Pritikin Exercise Plan recommends exercising at too high a heart rate for maximum aerobic training.

2. I think the CDC recommendations are too complicated to implement. A person has to look up MET's for different exercises and be accurate in their assessment of exercise intensity. They also have to accurately track their exercise time and intensity for the different times. The actual recommendation is 500 to 1000 MET minutes a week.

3. Dr. Cooper's Aerobics Points System tends to encourage a person to progress to the next exercise level without regard for the probability many will turn it into a competitive exercise plan.

4. Dr. Maffetone's concept of The Aerobic Training Zone installs important safeguards on all three plans.

My idea of the perfect plan that is easy to follow is to use The Aerobics Points System while staying in The Aerobic Training Zone. Only count dedicated exercise outside of the normal daily routine unless a person has an active job which would justify counting part of the daily routine. The optimum recommendation for health is 30 to 60 points a week.

Those who can't attain 30 to 60 points a week should do the best they can. There are some benefits even at lower exercise levels.

Note: I haven't stated any opinions about strength training as I don't know much about it.

I don't address marathons and beyond because the method of training can have a great effect on the outcome.

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Re: Exercise, Health and You: How much is Enough? (A respons

Postby Skip » Mon Oct 26, 2015 5:54 pm

What's the big deal?
Jeff says exercise 30-60 minutes a day
Others say exercise 30-90 minutes a day
I feel like you are overthinking the issue

Some people get plenty of exercise without going to the gym or formally working out 30 - 90 minutes because they are active during the day.

IMO, the most important thing isn't the amount of time per exercise session but the consistency in which you can keep your exercise going in the long run (measured in years). It's about developing good habits for the long run....
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Re: Exercise, Health and You: How much is Enough? (A respons

Postby arugula » Mon Oct 26, 2015 6:03 pm

i get my aerobics from riding my bicycle to and from work.

but that isn't enough.

i need resistance training to look as though i exercise. many women (most?) do.

maybe there's no health hazard associated with flab but my quality of life is so much higher when i have muscles instead of jello. i find resistance training to be torture most days but i do it because i like the benefits.

also i think it does more for my mental health than any pill ever did.

the ideal amount for psychological health seems to be much more than that for physical health. at least for me. i have to get really strenuous and to the point of tears for at least an hour to get a lasting benefit throughout the day. first thing in the morning is best.
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Re: Exercise, Health and You: How much is Enough? (A respons

Postby Gershon » Mon Oct 26, 2015 6:32 pm

Skip wrote:What's the big deal?
Jeff says exercise 30-60 minutes a day
Others say exercise 30-90 minutes a day
I feel like you are overthinking the issue



Skip,

Here is the big deal. The CDC (Jeff is reporting) says 150 minutes a week of brisk walking defined as over 3 mph is enough. At a 20 minute mile this is only 7.5 miles. Added: They also state that 75 minutes of intense exercise defined as jogging or running is enough. It is one-fourth to one half of the recommendation by Dr. Cooper. Dr. Cooper's research is the most comprehensive there is.

The Pritikin Exercise plan is at 70-80% of maximum heart rate which may be dangerous for many people. It also does not do much for aerobics conditioning. That's the whole point of exercise for health.

The whole CDC recommendation is overthought compared to Dr. Cooper's simple points system.
Last edited by Gershon on Mon Oct 26, 2015 8:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Exercise, Health and You: How much is Enough? (A respons

Postby JeffN » Mon Oct 26, 2015 7:08 pm

Gershon wrote:Here is the big deal. The CDC (Jeff is reporting) says 150 minutes a week of brisk walking defined as over 3 mph is enough.


Neither the CDC, nor I, state (or report) that. Their recommendations, as with my comments, as with anything, must be put in proper perspective and context, which my full thread does.

The CDC Is saying that one should do "at least" 150 minutes a week of moderate intensity exercise along with resistance training on two days.

Here is what the CDC (one of 8 organizations I reference) actually says (which is linked to in my reference to the CDC)

http://www.cdc.gov/physicalactivity/bas ... /index.htm

Adults need at least:
2 hours and 30 minutes (150 minutes) of moderate-intensity aerobic activity (i.e., brisk walking) every week

and

muscle-strengthening activities on 2 or more days a week that work all major muscle groups (legs, hips, back, abdomen, chest, shoulders, and arms).

OR

1 hour and 15 minutes (75 minutes) of vigorous-intensity aerobic activity (i.e., jogging or running) every week

and

muscle-strengthening activities on 2 or more days a week that work all major muscle groups (legs, hips, back, abdomen, chest, shoulders, and arms).

OR

An equivalent mix of moderate- and vigorous-intensity aerobic activity

and

muscle-strengthening activities on 2 or more days a week that work all major muscle groups (legs, hips, back, abdomen, chest, shoulders, and arms).


For the record, & while you are at it, you may want to also respond to Dr McDougall's exercise recommendations too. :)

https://www.drmcdougall.com/health/educ ... -exercise/

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Re: Exercise, Health and You: How much is Enough? (A respons

Postby Gershon » Mon Oct 26, 2015 8:16 pm

Jeff,

It would help to know if you are familiar with the Cooper Aerobics points system. If you are, you will see it is similar to the CDC recommendations IF one uses MET minutes. Without a heart rate monitor, MET minutes are difficult to calculate. I don't trust the CDC as much as they used the same panel system they used for dietary guidelines.

The word definitions the CDC gives for exercise intensity means a person would only get about one-fourth to maybe one-half the exercise recommended by Cooper. Dr. Cooper also recommends strength training, but I'm not familiar with his recommendations.

I was shocked when I heard Dr. McDougall say on a video (I think it was Diet Wars) that exercise and GMO's are a distraction. Then I realized he was probably triaging. To an obese person with whatever critical disease they have, talking about exercise is probably the last thing he'd want to do. The diet is the more important issue. Compared to the wrong foods, GMO's are a minor issue except for the environmental effects. Many people can't afford to worry about them.

Dr. McDougall often says something like every long lived healthy lean population that has survived for a long time has eaten a starch based diet with some fruits and vegetables. The part he leaves out is they have also been active as a normal part of their daily life. I don't know if this is to simplify the matter to say this way of eating is enough and exercise doesn't matter, or if he has chosen not to address the exercise side of health in detail. Either way or someplace in between is fine with me.

I know we can't out exercise a terrible diet, so no need to go in that direction.

Somewhere, the exercise faction and the diet faction seem to have split. It appears it began with Pritikin's criticism of Jim Fixx's diet.

In his book titled Diet for Runners, Pritikin described a conversation he had with Jim Fixx that took place in January 1984:

“Jim Fixx phoned me and criticized the chapter “Run and Die on the American Diet” in my book The Pritikin Promise. In that chapter, I said that many runners on the average American diet have died and will continue to drop dead during or shortly after long-distance events or training sessions. Jim thought the chapter was hysterical in tone and would frighten a lot of runners. I told him that was my intention. I hoped it would frighten them into changing their diets. I explained that I think it is better to be hysterical before someone dies than after. Too many men, I told Jim, had already died because they believed that anyone who could run a marathon in under four hours and who was a nonsmoker had absolute immunity from having a heart attack.”


I just ordered the book, so I'll have more info later.

Instead of diet and exercise being intertwined, they seem to have become opponents.

Dr. McDougall is busy and doesn't frequent these forums. Perhaps you know the answer.

Is the Cooper Aerobics Points system a healthy addition to the McDougall way of eating. Given his age, Dr. McDougall is likely familiar with Dr. Cooper's Aerobics Points system.
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Re: Exercise, Health and You: How much is Enough? (A respons

Postby Skip » Mon Oct 26, 2015 8:46 pm

Gershon wrote:
Skip wrote: What's the big deal?
Jeff says exercise 30-60 minutes a day
Others say exercise 30-90 minutes a day
I feel like you are overthinking the issue


Skip,

Here is the big deal. The CDC (Jeff is reporting) says 150 minutes a week of brisk walking defined as over 3 mph is enough. At a 20 minute mile this is only 7.5 miles. Added: They also state that 75 minutes of intense exercise defined as jogging or running is enough. It is one-fourth to one half of the recommendation by Dr. Cooper. Dr. Cooper's research is the most comprehensive there is.


Jeff has responded that this is not true.

Gershon wrote:The Pritikin Exercise plan is at 70-80% of maximum heart rate which may be dangerous for many people. It also does not do much for aerobics conditioning. That's the whole point of exercise for health.


70-80% of maximum heart rate is defined by most as being the "aerobic zone" where your aerobic conditioning takes place where you build your cardiovascular system up.

Gershon wrote:The whole CDC recommendation is overthought compared to Dr. Cooper's simple points system.


If you like Dr. Cooper's system, go for it and enjoy it. Everyone finds their own path to develop an exercise routine. I used to play squash almost everyday and I was a very good competitive player. Now I bike, swim, and run in addition to stretching and some weights. The important thing is to just get off your ass and do something. I'm sorry but I feel like you are over analyzing this stuff.
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Re: Exercise, Health and You: How much is Enough? (A respons

Postby JeffN » Mon Oct 26, 2015 8:57 pm

Gershon wrote: It would help to know if you are familiar with the Cooper Aerobics points system.


Yes and I know Dr Blair, their head of epidemiology and research.

Gershon wrote: If you are, you will see it is similar to the CDC recommendations IF one uses MET minutes. Without a heart rate monitor, MET minutes are difficult to calculate.


I disagree.

None of the systems I referenced depend on knowing or calculating METs or insist on it or require a heart rate monitor. Most of them do not even mention METs.

If you go the CDC website where they discuss "Measuring Physical Activity Intensity," they give several ways of estimating moderate and vigorous activity.

http://www.cdc.gov/physicalactivity/bas ... index.html

These include some examples of sample exercises, such as the one you mentioned, the "Target Heart Rate and Estimated Maximum Heart Rate" and the "Perceived Exertion (Borg Rating of Perceived Exertion Scale)" all of which I discuss here and point out how easy all this is and which system really is the best.

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=9507

As an FYI, the Cooper system is also based on MET's and is just another way to translate this to the general population. However, when one looks at their chart, linked below, I don't see his points system as any easier or better then any of the other systems.

http://www.cooperaerobics.com/Downloads ... ystem.aspx

Recently, Lani Muelrath interviewed Dr Cooper and as you can see, his point system is inline with the general recommendation of the 8 organizations I referenced, which includes the CDC but was not based on the CDC alone.

http://lanimuelrath.com/confused-about- ... th-cooper/

For the record, though I am not recommending using them, METs can be easily estimated here with this online calculator, even without needing a heart rate monitor...

http://www.exrx.net/Calculators/WalkRunMETs.html

Gershon wrote: I don't trust the CDC as much as they used the same panel system they used for dietary guidelines.


The CDC is not involved in the Dietary Guidelines.

Gershon wrote: I was shocked when I heard Dr. McDougall say on a video (I think it was Diet Wars) that exercise and GMO's are a distraction. Then I realized he was probably triaging. To an obese person with whatever critical disease they have, talking about exercise is probably the last thing he'd want to do. The diet is the more important issue. Compared to the wrong foods, GMO's are a minor issue except for the environmental effects. Many people can't afford to worry about them.

Dr. McDougall often says something like every long lived healthy lean population that has survived for a long time has eaten a starch based diet with some fruits and vegetables. The part he leaves out is they have also been active as a normal part of their daily life. I don't know if this is to simplify the matter to say this way of eating is enough and exercise doesn't matter, or if he has chosen not to address the exercise side of health in detail. Either way or someplace in between is fine with me.

Somewhere, the exercise faction and the diet faction seem to have split. It appears it began with Pritikin's criticism of Jim Fixx's diet.

In his book titled Diet for Runners, Pritikin described a conversation he had with Jim Fixx that took place in January 1984:

“Jim Fixx phoned me and criticized the chapter “Run and Die on the American Diet” in my book The Pritikin Promise. In that chapter, I said that many runners on the average American diet have died and will continue to drop dead during or shortly after long-distance events or training sessions. Jim thought the chapter was hysterical in tone and would frighten a lot of runners. I told him that was my intention. I hoped it would frighten them into changing their diets. I explained that I think it is better to be hysterical before someone dies than after. Too many men, I told Jim, had already died because they believed that anyone who could run a marathon in under four hours and who was a nonsmoker had absolute immunity from having a heart attack.”

I just ordered the book, so I'll have more info later.

Instead of diet and exercise being intertwined, they seem to have become opponents.

Dr. McDougall is busy and doesn't frequent these forums. Perhaps you know the answer.

Is the Cooper Aerobics Points system a healthy addition to the McDougall way of eating. Given his age, Dr. McDougall is likely familiar with Dr. Cooper's Aerobics Points system.


The Pritikin book will not be current. I helped to design the current guidelines and can assure you, they are inline with the 8 organizations I referenced.

While I posted a link to Dr McDougall's comments on exercise, you can find more here...

https://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2005nl ... ushing.htm

I can share with you the perspective he teaches at the 10-Day program (which will really surprise you), however, if you really want to understand Dr McDougall's position, you should email him. As many here have said, he is quick to respond.

It is also important to understand the difference between public health recommendations for exercise and individualized personal recommendations for exercise.

The problem we often see here is people take isolated comments they see here or online and use them as the gospel without knowing more about them or their context.

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=14185

I think your original post was mis-titled as it was not a response to my original post on exercise, (which was more about my concerns about people doing too much exercise). It was more a response to the CDC's exercise recommendations, though I didn't think they were accurately represented.

I hope I have clarified these issues.

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Re: Exercise, Health and You: How much is Enough? (A respons

Postby Skip » Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:02 pm

Gershon,

I got the following quote from The Cooper Institute:

"Finding Your Sweet Spot

There are multiple activities you can do to gain cardiovascular benefits. Everyone has their own workout preferences, and you may find that you’re more adherent to an exercise program if you vary what you’re doing. Try switching up your activities throughout the week.

How much aerobic exercise do yo need for health benefits? The Cooper Institute is a proponent of the American College of Sports Medicine‘s recommendation to get at least 150 minutes a week of moderate intensity aerobic activity as a minimum for good health. Depending on what your goals are, it will influence you how much exercise you should do.

Remember – more is better, but only to a certain point. It varies from person to person, so there’s not an definitive answer on how much is too much. The sweet spot for optimal health benefits of aerobic activity is in between 150 to 300 minutes per week. Once you go beyond 300 minutes, you may receive additional fitness benefits, but you may not get added health benefits.
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Re: Exercise, Health and You: How much is Enough? (A respons

Postby JeffN » Tue Oct 27, 2015 10:03 am

Gershon wrote:The Pritikin Exercise plan is at 70-80% of maximum heart rate which may be dangerous for many people. It also does not do much for aerobics conditioning.


To be clear, I spoke to the Pritikin Center today and here are their current recommendations...

1) Aerobic exercise daily, a minimum of 30 minutes and optimally 60 to 90 minutes, alternating moderate-intensity days with vigorous-intensity days;
2) Full-body resistance routine two to three times weekly; and
3) Stretching exercises daily to greatly enhance your overall flexibility and ability to exercise more freely.

Everyone who enters Pritikin undergoes a exercise stress test and the exercise recommendation are personalized to them based on the test.

I can get into more details, like why and when 30 vs 90 minutes, etc etc but suffice to say, their recommendations are inline with the other 8 organizations I referenced.

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Re: Exercise, Health and You: How much is Enough? (A respons

Postby Gershon » Tue Oct 27, 2015 3:35 pm

Jeff,

Thanks for taking the effort to call the Pritikin Center. Their program seems reasonable.

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Re: Exercise, Health and You: How much is Enough? (A respons

Postby Skip » Wed Oct 28, 2015 6:23 pm

Gershon wrote:Jeff,

Thanks for taking the effort to call the Pritikin Center. Their program seems reasonable.

Gershon


After all that analysis, your conclusion seems reasonable!
Why wasn't this thread started in the Exercise and Fitness room? It doesn't belong here...
Last edited by Skip on Thu Oct 29, 2015 6:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Exercise, Health and You: How much is Enough? (A respons

Postby Golden Ghost » Wed Oct 28, 2015 6:43 pm

Anyone who is interested in cardiovascular health needs to realize that the times they are changing. I'm not saying that aerobic training is not good for you but all the new research shows that hard fast intervals are far better. Do they have some downsides, yes. But the old long slow is not the only game in town.
http://www.cbass.com/IntervalsEveryone.htm
http://www.cbass.com/IntervalsBloodSugar.htm
http://www.cbass.com/IntervalsArterialStiffness.htm
http://www.cbass.com/HighIntensity.htm
http://www.cbass.com/IntervalsDiabetes.htm

Also, I believe all the new research shows that anaerobic training increases you aerobic endurance, contrary to what the OP quoted. I believe you need to do both. I don't believe arobic training stresses your cardiovascular system or muscles enough. Hard fast training will also build and maintain your fast twitch muscles which are the first to go with age.
And the OP mentions that 70-80% of max heart rate could be dangerous and will not condition the aerobic system. I can't disagree more. Unless you have a medical condition 70-80% of max heart rate is not all that high. And the 180 less your age put me at 70% max heart rate which is exactly what is needed for aerobic training.
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Re: Exercise, Health and You: How much is Enough? (A respons

Postby Skip » Thu Oct 29, 2015 11:45 am

Golden Ghost wrote:Anyone who is interested in cardiovascular health needs to realize that the times they are changing. I'm not saying that aerobic training is not good for you but all the new research shows that hard fast intervals are far better. Do they have some downsides, yes. But the old long slow is not the only game in town.


The question isn't which is better, the question is how much of each type of training is optimal for what you want to train for. See this thread: viewtopic.php?f=17&t=46879
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