Garth Davis, Proteinaholic

[human vegetable]

I think when he says that protein is "addictive", this is a figurative statement meant to emphasize that people have been brainwashed to equate protein with health, and therefore they are not open for a starch-based diet because of the subliminal fear that they'll wither away.

At least that's what I take away from reading the book extract where he reports some conversations with patients who seem to be completely unable to follow up on his dietary recommendations, because their subconscious conditioning always makes them fall back on their old animal based staples.

I would like to know what his messages are about plant protein: As he recommends beans/legumes he cannot be "anti-protein" in general. Does he place limits on recommended plant protein intake as well, just like McD does, or does he only warn against consumption of animal protein?

[healthyvegan]

cutting out half a human's stomach to lesson the effects of fork & knife suicide is equivalent to cutting off a heroin addict's hands. You are saying the addiction is so strong & this person so hopeless & our ability to reform them so futile that we need to mutilate them.

[katgirl55]

I heard his interview on the Rich Roll Podcast and was impressed by his knowledge and perspective. I am not concerned that he has spent his career until recently doing bariatic surgery and recommending the diet that goes along with that. People change, and Dr. Davis seems to be adapting his practice. But change does not necessarily happen overnight. We were not there in the early days of Dr. Ornish, Dr. Esselstyn, or Dr. McDougall to know what gradual steps they needed to make to get to where they are today.

On the topic of meat addiction, Dr. Barnard talks about this in Breaking the Food Seduction. Besides physical addiction, the world seems conditioned to believe that animal protein is needed in high amounts in order for us to be healthy and strong. Plant protein is dismissed as being incomplete, and also not sure anyone would be jonesing for some tofu. Maybe it is more apt to call it Meataholic, but I think Dr. Davis is on to something by using the euphemism that is currently the popular term for meat. It subverts the programming that people are getting from food, fitness, diet and medical circles regarding the need for protein protein protein.

***edited title of Neal Barnard's book..

[EvanG]

I've heard and seen Davis on the RR podcast and elsewhere. He seems great to me. If anyone I knew was considering bariatric surgery, I'd recommend they check him out.

[vgpedlr]

The impression I got from interviews is that the title refers to a psychological addiction to the idea of protein, and always needing "more" because more is better, right?

I don't think people get a food addiction to protein by itself, since I don't see people relishing amino acid powders, I have seen gym rats wolf down with relish plain non-fat cottage cheese, and tuna straight from the can because they are two of the lowest fat, purest, "Quality" protein sources around. In that case, I think it's psychological.

Physically, perhaps we become addicted to calorie dense foods, which include those popularly referred to as protein.

[Skip]

Full disclosure: I don't understand Garth Davis.
Seems like he's speaking out of both sides of his mouth.
Promotes veg/starch, less protein...but doesn't use this knowledge to help his clients. Heck, it even helped him, who was overweight! Why?

IknowIknow...baratric surgery, very popular surgery, pays the bills. I don't deny him from earning a very profitable living, but there's something that which...bugs me. I have a hard time promoting someone that have differing thoughts like this. Am I alone with this?

Can someone explain to me why he still promotes the 'If you’ve struggled with your weight and no amount of dieting and exercise has worked, The Davis Clinic may be for you." type of thinking? Maybe I'm missing something. TIA!

Some morbidly obese people have given up all diets and all hope of ever losing weight. If I was like that, I would certainly entertain the option of bariatric surgery. Dr. Davis would try to convince the morbidly obese patient to try a starch based diet but if the patient wouldn't comply, I don't see any conflict of interest in performing the surgery. Dr. Davis would still advise, after the surgery, that the patient try to eat a plant based diet. What's so hard to understand about this?

[Ern2Win]

The first problem I have with his book (I only read what was free on-line) is that he claims that protein is addictive. Once I read nonsense like this there is no reason to read any further. I don't know, nor have I ever heard anyone claim to be addicted to protein. In fact just about everyone has to cover up their meat with sauce, condiments, spices like salt, bread or breading just to make the stuff palatable. Ask anyone who has ever been on Atkins just how addicting protein is? The major reason you eat fewer calories is that you can only handle so much meat before you want to barf.

I see where you are coming from, but there are 2 viable definitions of addicted:

1. physically and mentally dependent on a particular substance, and unable to stop taking it without incurring adverse effects.

2. enthusiastically devoted to a particular thing or activity

I believe that definition 2 describes American's love affair with meat.

[StarchHEFP]

If someone has had gastric bypass, the below are links to articles about being veg*n and eating enough calories to sustain oneself. Gastric bypass is becoming very popular in India, where 80% of people follow a lactovegetarian diet. See this article: http://www.hindustantimes.com/wellness/the-right-diet-after-a-gastric-bypass/article1-754203.aspx
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CDUQFjAAahUKEwichPWsn_vHAhWLcj4KHdesCeo&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.slhn.org%2F~%2Fmedia%2FFiles%2FPDF%2FBariatrics%2FBariatrics-VeganF2013.pdf&usg=AFQjCNHrZtPTxH0pF8pEAVneBN4207iNnw&bvm=bv.102829193,d.cWw
http://www.theflamingvegan.com/view-post/Going-Vegan-after-WLS
http://www.vegan-nutritionista.com/vegan-after-gastric-bypass-surgery.html
http://thegastricbypassvegan.blogspot.com/

The above being said, I have seen some serious complications of gastric bypass. Inherently in gastric bypass, you "bypass" the intestines such that the nutrients do not get absorbed. There are the fat-soluble vitamins A,D,E,K but what about all those wonderful phytonutrients? This leads to peripheral neuropathy which can be painful, neurohypoglycemia, immune system shutdown and septicemia, weight re-gain after massive weight loss as the stomach expands and people learn ways of eating around the surgery because there is a desperate human drive to survive and adaptations such as grazing and liquid calories arise. I have personally seen the above complications and I think any patient who does gastric bypass should be fully informed of the benefits (they will probably lose 1/2 their body weight or more) but the risks that (1) they could die (2) they could be left with dementia and peripheral neuropathy (3) their immune system could shut down and get severe infections (4) bone thinning from malnutrition; limitations that there are people who still regain the weight and alternatives: The McDougall plan, or a WFPB diet, along with some walking program if they are able to.

This being said, I hope that Dr. Davis makes so much money from his book that he can sell his bariatric practice and go on speaking tours talking about how he used to be a weight loss surgeon, but now he has a residential weight loss program that caters to the extremely obese, and has his own show on TLC that competes with "big medicine"!

[Katydid]

This being said, I hope that Dr. Davis makes so much money from his book that he can sell his bariatric practice and go on speaking tours talking about how he used to be a weight loss surgeon, but now he has a residential weight loss program that caters to the extremely obese, and has his own show on TLC that competes with "big medicine"!

LOL, he'd have to get past his dad first. As I recall from the TV show, head surgeon Robert Davis is a pretty tough old bird. I have to wonder what he thinks of his son trying to talk people out of his livelihood

Kate

[baardmk]

Good post StarchHEFP.

Bariatric surgery is extreme. Many other interventions/programs could be thought just as extreme as well but are never really considered. Why? Because it's not a pill or a surgery. How about drinking 1L (~a quart) before eating any meal and never ever snacking anything but a fruit. It's not 100% effective, I guess, and there's always the willpower problem. I'm not sure a SAD diet with this intervention is any kind of sustainable.

I saw this documentary episode from "the men who made us thin" on BBC showing a man who had installed a tap in his stomach, through which he could empty out ~30% of a meal's content. less side-effects than bariatric surgery, though, right.

[dteresa]

dr. Doug Lisle talks about a very overweight woman who came to him, I guess for counseling. He tried to explain the wfpb diet to her and she just was not interested. She wanted to lose weight but did not want to put in the necessary effort. He could not get her to change her diet. Finally he got her to do just one thing. I believe it was to switch out the meat and fat breakfast she had every day and to eat either oatmeal or some kind of cereal and maybe some fruit instead. She did this and kept every other part of her diet the same. She did lose some weight and was very satisfied with the weight she lost (not what she needed to lose) and felt more comfortable at the lower weight. That was it. He worked with her for months and that was all he could accomplish.

Some people just have their hearts and minds set on bariatric surgery despite the possible horrible outcomes or even the possibility that they will overeat and stretch their stomachs and regain weight. The same with those with high blood pressure, t2 diabetes, blocked arteries, arthritis, etc. People do not want to change.

So we have a moral and ethical problem. Do we not treat these patients at all with the inferior pharmaceuticals and medical devices and surgeries? Or do we do the best we can with a person who adamantly refuses to change his lifestyle? Do we let people die because they are too stubborn or lazy or addicted to change or do we act as compassionately as possible in the circumstances even though it is not the best decision for their long term health.

My complaint is doctors whose attitude is always, you are too fat to lose weight, or too weak willed to change so I will not offer you anything but what I consider your best option. Dr. Davis at least does try to offer the best solution. To do otherwise logically requires that all physicians refuse to treat patients at all who do not change their lifestyles. Not just bariatric surgeons.

didi

[patty]

Good post StarchHEFP.

Bariatric surgery is extreme. Many other interventions/programs could be thought just as extreme as well but are never really considered. Why? Because it's not a pill or a surgery. How about drinking 1L (~a quart) before eating any meal and never ever snacking anything but a fruit. It's not 100% effective, I guess, and there's always the willpower problem. I'm not sure a SAD diet with this intervention is any kind of sustainable.

I saw this documentary episode from "the men who made us thin" on BBC showing a man who had installed a tap in his stomach, through which he could empty out ~30% of a meal's content. less side-effects than bariatric surgery, though, right.

At sometime Dr. Garth Davis will no longer be able to cut into himself by practicing gastric bypass surgery as the individual dies to the collective I am you:) Addiction is a thinking disease. Food and money go hand and hand. He is still is enveloped in the empirical world instead of the non-emperical. It is a inside job as empathy is seeing with the eyes of another, listening with the ears of another, and feeling with the heart of another to realize I am you! Space and time are a construct of the brain. Freewill is a fallacy:)

Aloha, patty

[StarchHEFP]

This being said, I hope that Dr. Davis makes so much money from his book that he can sell his bariatric practice and go on speaking tours talking about how he used to be a weight loss surgeon, but now he has a residential weight loss program that caters to the extremely obese, and has his own show on TLC that competes with "big medicine"!

LOL, he'd have to get past his dad first. As I recall from the TV show, head surgeon Robert Davis is a pretty tough old bird. I have to wonder what he thinks of his son trying to talk people out of his livelihood

Kate

Imagine this - Dr. Robert Davis WITH son Dr. Garth turns the "Davis Clinic" into a WFPB weight loss program, and closes up the surgical shop! The following the father/son team have would make for a very good publicity!

[baardmk]

Thanks patty, that was pretty beautiful and poetic.

Very well pointed out, didi.

I do think these procedures should be cut way short or eliminated and that we take a stand that prohibits people either unable/unwilling* to change to have the procedure. I don't think deliberate harm to oneself should be sanctioned when people should be given better options and take responsibility for their own lives. And kind of vica versa. If people are fat and are unable to change to a, quote unquote, restrictive diet, it's fine by me - we don't need to tell them they need to do this or that. But as ever, you can't say laissez faire, IMO, because nobody is an island, and every lifestyle choice you make ends up affecting others, and with unhealthy choices it's often severe consequences for family, community, economy. I guess I see some amount of "moral hazard" in all of this, informing my opinion. "Fixing" that person's problem with surgery promulgates all kinds of dubious practices/views, like the myth that some people are unable to lose weight.

As these types of procedures get better and less risky, my moral quandary with them do get more difficult for those unwilling to change dietary practice. But I guess the moral hazard deepens as well. I read today an article by an MD who said that it wasn't proved that these surgeries actually extends life or prevents serious illness.

* there's a continuum here, but I believe noone is unable to limit calorie intake long term and/or up their PA. And given a nurturing/healthy environment people are unable to step beyond their addiction to certain habits/viewpoints/identities.

[StarchHEFP]

dr. Doug Lisle talks about a very overweight woman who came to him, I guess for counseling. He tried to explain the wfpb diet to her and she just was not interested. She wanted to lose weight but did not want to put in the necessary effort. He could not get her to change her diet. Finally he got her to do just one thing. I believe it was to switch out the meat and fat breakfast she had every day and to eat either oatmeal or some kind of cereal and maybe some fruit instead. She did this and kept every other part of her diet the same. She did lose some weight and was very satisfied with the weight she lost (not what she needed to lose) and felt more comfortable at the lower weight. That was it. He worked with her for months and that was all he could accomplish.

Some people just have their hearts and minds set on bariatric surgery despite the possible horrible outcomes or even the possibility that they will overeat and stretch their stomachs and regain weight. The same with those with high blood pressure, t2 diabetes, blocked arteries, arthritis, etc. People do not want to change.

So we have a moral and ethical problem. Do we not treat these patients at all with the inferior pharmaceuticals and medical devices and surgeries? Or do we do the best we can with a person who adamantly refuses to change his lifestyle? Do we let people die because they are too stubborn or lazy or addicted to change or do we act as compassionately as possible in the circumstances even though it is not the best decision for their long term health.

My complaint is doctors whose attitude is always, you are too fat to lose weight, or too weak willed to change so I will not offer you anything but what I consider your best option. Dr. Davis at least does try to offer the best solution. To do otherwise logically requires that all physicians refuse to treat patients at all who do not change their lifestyles. Not just bariatric surgeons.

didi

Very good comments and observations. What the problem I have with doctors is that the bariatric surgeons many times do not FULLY explain ALL the risks of weight loss surgery. They tell them that there is less than 1/1000 chance of death, and that's it. As far as the dementia and neuropathy, these are defintely real risks! http://archneur.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=786290 and http://www.medicine.virginia.edu/clinical/departments/medicine/divisions/digestive-health/nutrition-support-team/nutrition-articles/ODonnell_November2011.pdf - it is my opinion that these deficiencies are severely unrecognized, misdiagnosed and under-reported as the article claims. True consent dictates that the patient be fully informed of these things, and if they still wish to proceed, then be there for them. I don't know if the bariatric surgeons are either not aware, or trying to ignore these potentially devastating complications. As a PCP, I see them firsthand. Patients who suffer these complications, tell me that if they knew ahead of time, then they would have changed their lifestyle and not opted for the surgery. For Lap-Band, I have seen the lap band break, dislodge, get infected, etc. For stomach stapling, there are case reports of leakage. All these complications are well-reported throughout the literature. Do patients go searching for these on Pub Med?

Think of frontal lobotomy, today we do residential treatment for a variety of mental health conditions, some programs even go for 1-3 months! How many frontal lobotomies are done? Perhaps the same could be done for severe obesity. Why was the rice diet so successful back then? Because Dr. Kempner would make sure they comply, and whip them into shape! The McDougall program is a much kinder way to go, but what if instead of insurance paying $20-$30,000 for surgery, they paid the same for a month-long residential treatment program? There are such treatment programs for chronic pain now, at Mayo Clinic they provide a month-long treatment program incorporating psychology, physical therapy, doctors, etc. see http://www.mayoclinic.org/departments-centers/pain-rehabilitation/minnesota/services/three-week-program - they even involve family members in this program.

Severe obesity should be treated the same.