Can anyone answer a few question(s)?

[winter]

1. I've found that in many Paleo/Low Carb documents that meat products are the only source of usable Vitamin A. And although our bodies can convert vegetable sources to a usable form - we would have to eat bushels of carrots/sweet potatoes just to meet our daily requirements. I've seen this pretty much everywhere so I'm interested to see a scientific rebuttal. I'm also interested in things that we can do to help the body - nutritionally or otherwise - to assist in conversion.

2. Legumes are referred to as an incomplete protein because they are low in one amino acid. Thus people often say to eat rice and beans to compliment each other. But what if you ignored that? Couldn't you theoretically just keep consuming legumes by themselves and eventually you would get enough of that one amino acid? By the way that one amino acid is called methionine. A few studies even suggest that restricting it would be beneficial to preventing cancer.

3. Any concerns about a Mary's Mini diet using nothing but Legumes and Raw Saurkraut?

Thank you for taking the time to read my post.

[vgpedlr]

1. I've found that in many Paleo/Low Carb documents that meat products are the only source of usable Vitamin A. And although our bodies can convert vegetable sources to a usable form - we would have to eat bushels of carrots/sweet potatoes just to meet our daily requirements.

The burden of proof is on them. I've not seen any evidence that humans are unable to effectively convert adequate amours of Vitamin A from caretnoids. Bushels not necessary. In fact, as a fat soluble vitamin, retinol can accumulate to toxic levels in the body, but the body will never to that on its own through conversion.

2. Legumes are referred to as an incomplete protein because they are low in one amino acid. Thus people often say to eat rice and beans to compliment each other. But what if you ignored that? Couldn't you theoretically just keep consuming legumes by themselves and eventually you would get enough of that one amino acid? By the way that one amino acid is called methionine. A few studies even suggest that restricting it would be beneficial to preventing cancer.

All plant foods are complete proteins. I've yet to find one that is missing any essential amino acid. The proportions vary, but in a calorically adequate diet that would never be a problem. Methionine is indeed problematic, and is probably one mechanism that gives a plant based diet its benefits.

3. Any concerns about a Mary's Mini diet using nothing but Legumes and Raw Saurkraut?

Why on earth would you want to do that? Looks like a recipe for epic GI distress, and I like both foods.

Too high in protein, too high in sodium to meet the guidelines here.

Check out Jeff's forum, especially the Stickies, FAQs, and Hot Topics. He's covered a lot of this.

[dailycarbs]

You'll be disappointed because I don't have a scientific rebuttal and can't even be bothered to look. Why would I? Is there a vitamin A deficiency epidemic among McDougallers that I didn't hear about? Still, let me check myself after almost 5 years on this woe.

Levels of vitamin A low enough to cause symptomatic deficiency are uncommon in people of normal health in industrialized nations. Symptoms of deficiency may include, but are not limited to, loss of appetite, poor immune function causing frequent infections (especially respiratory), hair loss, rashes, dry skin and eyes, visual difficulties including night blindness, poor growth, and fatigue.

Appetite is great. Immune system never better. Can't remeber my last cold. No hair loss but I wouldn't mind some more hair on my head. Dry skin? Nope. But the oily slick that was on my forehead when I was eating oil and fried foods is gone. My eyesight has gotten better including night vision and going from light to dark. Poor growth? Well you got me. I shrunk by 50 lbs. Fatigue? I only have 10x the energy I used to.

Still, I'd better make sure by running a typical day's menu through CRON-O-Meter. Let's see.

Vitamin A
56885.0 IU
1896%

CRON-O-Meter has red all over it. It's warning me that I'm dangerously high in vitamin A intake! I'm confused. I was expecting a deficiency.

Not being snarky or anything. Just so you know, I'm saying that I ignore reductionist nonsesense like this, eat my woe, and add b-12 for good measure. My body knows how to do the rest. This is especially true of "where do I get my protein?" questions so I won't bother with that. But you don't have to eat rice or anything else. You eat starches, veggies and a little fruit if you like. You pick the starches and veggies and stop stressing.

Read some of the star McDougaller's stories -- some of them have been at this for 10 years or more. You will thrive on this woe in every way.

[PotatoBrain]

I've been through kind of a de-programming from the low-carb warnings.

I read that our cells would collapse without enough cholesterol. The problem with that argument is our bodies produce cholesterol. I read that we need to eat fat. I discovered that we only need to consume very small quantities of the ONLY TWO ESSENTIAL fatty acids... omega-3 and omega 6 fatty acids. And the most important thing about these fatty acids is the proportion because our bodies need very small quantities.

As far as Vitamin A being a fat soluble vitamin, if we have any fat on our body to burn, our bodies continuously burn a mixture of fat and glycogen so there's plenty of fat available for the fat-soluble vitamins to be absorbed.

By the way, I have a friend who is blind because her dermatologist in her teens gave her too much vitamin A (apparently to treat teenage acne). When I remarked that my grandmother always told me carrots were good for my eyes, she assured me it can't possibly happen from eating too many carrots. It's a different kind of vitamin A (retinol).

[MINNIE]

Here is an article, by registered dietician Jeff Novick, regarding the myth of incomplete protein.



http://www.jeffnovick.com/RD/Articles/E ... teins.html

It's amazing that this idea is still around, when the originator, Frances Lappe, retracted it years ago.

[colonyofcells]

Mainstream dietitians have no problem with vitamin A from plants. Food labels also agree plants have vitamin A. Vegans have been around since at least the early 1900s and the only known deficiency is vitamin b12. Before the invention of b12 pills, dying vegans were saved by supplements made from animal products. Sauerkraut also has protein. In the picture book cover page, in the list of starches, beans come first so I would assume it is ok to use beans as the main starch staple. Beans and sauerkraut looks like a good combination if you don't mind the added salt.
https://www.drmcdougall.com/2014/06/30/food-poisoning/
Among the legumes, the only items in the caution list are soy (high in fat) and peanuts (classified as a nut and is high in fat).

[vgpedlr]

In the picture book cover page, in the list of starches, beans come first so I would assume it is ok to use beans as the main starch staple.

Since the general recommendation repeated often is to limit legumes to 1 cup a day, I assume that they are not appropriate as the main source of calories in a Mini. They are generous in starch, but also perhaps too high in protein.

Beans and sauerkraut looks like a good combination if you don't mind the added salt.

Very high in sodium. You wouldn't be able to eat very much to hit the limits taught here.
Running a day's worth of this menu through the CRON-meter would show what nutrients are lacking.

From the June 2006 Newsletter article on the Mary's Mini:

*While root vegetables like potatoes and sweet potatoes provide well-rounded nutrition—grains and beans lack sufficient vitamins A and C to be eaten alone; therefore add some fruit and/or green and yellow vegetables to make your grain and bean meals complete.

To get enough vit C from the sauerkraut you'd be way too high on sodium. And still lacking vit A.

[colonyofcells]

Mary's mini could be lacking in some of the micronutrients altho probably safe as a short term diet. People have been known to survive like 45 days on just water alone. I am not really sure why some people try mary's mini and why some people are doing the maximum weight loss as a permanent diet.
The local whole foods sells a brand of low salt fermented vegetables but they are expensive.

[vgpedlr]

Mary's mini could be lacking in some of the micronutrients altho probably safe as a short term diet.

So are many traditional diets, which is what MM copies. Most traditional diets rely on a couple of starches with whatever seasonal fruits and veg were available. It's only recently that in developed nations we have access to such tremendous variety all year round.

I am not really sure why some people try mary's mini and why some people are doing the maximum weight loss as a permanent diet.

Some people do better with simplicity and monotony, which are the principles of the MM. Some people must reduce calorie density and/ or variety in order to maintain their weight loss and health progress.

[colonyofcells]

Mary's mini with beans as the main starch should be acceptable. Maybe vary the vegetables more instead of sauerkraut every day. Should be easy to get vitamin c from raw greens and also some vitamin a. There are many traditional diets with just 1 starch such as brown rice 3x a day and brown rice for snacks too.

[vgpedlr]

Mary's mini with beans as the main starch should be acceptable.

Too much protein.

Legumes average 25% of calories from protein, FIVE TIMES the 5% that Dr. McDougall explains as necessary, 2.5 times the 10% often used as a guideline.

1500 calories from legumes would be almost double what an average male needs.

Refer to this month's newsletter for comments regarding protein overload just from overemphasizing green veggies.

[colonyofcells]

The % protein in beans is probably lower than that of vegetables. Since plant proteins tend to be less complete, protein overdose from plant proteins is probably unlikely. Dr Mcdougall continues to promote beans as one of the starches and there is no warning about too much protein from the starches including the beans.

[vgpedlr]

The % protein in beans is probably lower than that of vegetables. Since plant proteins tend to be less complete, protein overdose from plant proteins is probably unlikely. Dr Mcdougall continues to promote beans as one of the starches and there is no warning about too much protein from the starches including the beans.

Vegetable products are usually lower in protein content than are animal products. The most important exceptions are the legumes ... These foods can be consumed easily in amounts large enough to yield a diet containing excessive protein. If you are in good health, legumes should be used in no more than one meal per day. The amount should not exceed one cup of cooked legumes per meal. (p. 104)

Hence the oft-repeated recommendation to limit legumes to one cup per day. That makes them inappropriate as the main starch for a MM.

Dr. McDougall frequently advises limiting protein, including plant protein, including, but definitely not limited to, this month's newsletter.

Of course, not everyone agrees, and Dr. Fuhrman's recommendations to prioritize legumes and greens would result in a higher protein diet.