UPDATED: Need help. This diet is too restrictive for me

For those questions and discussions on the McDougall program that don’t seem to fit in any other forum.

Moderators: JeffN, f1jim, John McDougall, carolve, Heather McDougall

Re: Need help. This diet is too restrictive for me

Postby roundcoconut » Mon Mar 02, 2015 4:45 pm

dailycarbs wrote:roundcoconut, I can't speak for anyone else but my only point is for the OP to separate out wanting to be a certain weight vs. needing to be a certain weight. I can tell you that 155 for a 5'10" man is a damn near perfect weight for health. Add more only if you need it for a reason (see my previous post).


Yeah, that's definitely true -- there is no *need* to be some weight that society considers masculine, and many men feel and look great at 155!

The "complete being" I seem to be ranting (my tie-dyed hippie definitely is present and accounted for today!) is also the being that comes with baggage about what it means to be small as a man. If those fears cannot be released, or if someone is not ready to defy society's ideas, or just wants to live life as a bulkier guy than is required for good health, then sometimes that's worth taking into consideration too.

There are all sorts of societal notions wrapped up in us, as people! Not bagging on any other posters, just pointing that part out.
User avatar
roundcoconut
 
Posts: 2530
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 11:55 pm

Re: Need help. This diet is too restrictive for me

Postby scooterpie » Mon Mar 02, 2015 4:54 pm

You're obviously somewhat upset that your body has changed in a negative way. I can't go on and tell you that you should feel otherwise and grateful that you're at what other feel is a "happy" BMI and all that jazz. It seems you're grieving a bit, and you want to have your body back.
I haven't read much about vegan bodybuilding.

Arian Foster apparently follows a McD diet and is a successful NFL player. I don't know what he does to maintain the muscle mass he needs to perform and compete properly.

I wonder if you began the gluten-free life at the same time as changing to this diet. Just curious--I know nothing one way or the other. But your body may have been thrown for a loop with a lot of changes at once and maybe it needs time to sort of even out, although you said you'd been at the McD thing for 2 years. And explore the vegan bodybuilding to see if it suits your situation.

Beyond that, if your autoimmune disease doesn't flare up by going "Ornish," maybe you could try that to see if you get the results you're seeking. It's very disturbing to lose a lot of weight (or gain a lot) in a short time. Some of us get used to big changes easily and others not.

Here are Dr McD's words, "If you do 10 percent, you get 10 percent of the results. You do 90 percent, you get 90 percent of the results." I guess that's his homage to transitioning--sort of. It just gets no sympathy on this board:-)

The only other thing would be to see a dr with your specific complaint to rule out anything else that may be affecting your tissue makeup.

I wish you well!
scooterpie
 
Posts: 1367
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 10:08 am

Re: Need help. This diet is too restrictive for me

Postby Emily » Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:16 pm

It sounds to me like you're losing too much weight and having cravings because the version of the diet you're eating isn't calorie-rich enough for your needs. Like others have said, including high-fat plant foods isn't counter to this plan. If it were me, I'd go out of my way to up my calories, eating high-calorie density foods. You NEED this if you're an athlete. (Gluten-free, oil-free bread is HARD to find, but these English muffins fit the bill: http://www.foodforlife.com/product/engl ... sh-muffins)

Good luck whatever you decide. Ignore any negativity. Your choices are your choices. I personally don't care how you eat, and I can't imagine why anyone else does, either. :)

Addressing your question, I believe eating a higher-fat plant food diet is healthier than the Ornish inclusion of skim dairy and fish foods - those have contamination issues. Plus dairy is icky, and fat-free dairy is pointless because it's not even yummy.

Best,
Emily
Emily
 
Posts: 184
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2008 2:18 am

Re: Need help. This diet is too restrictive for me

Postby Spiral » Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:33 pm

bridgetohealth wrote:So it really sounds like eteselle is right and you're just asking for permission to go off-plan. You have it. It's your life and body. But don't expect anyone here to like it or to recommend it, etc.


I agree with this.

Let's not become so eager to provide "support" to the point where we undermine the integrity of the McDougall diet.

We can water down the McDougall diet so that it doesn't appear too restrictive. But by doing so, we lose the health benefits associated with the diet.
User avatar
Spiral
 
Posts: 3005
Joined: Sat Dec 18, 2010 8:18 pm
Location: Indianapolis, Indiana

Re: Need help. This diet is too restrictive for me

Postby AnnaSpanna » Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:55 pm

Looking at what you eat I'd try to pack in more calories at your morning and afternoon tea times. The fruit, while it's good for you won't supply a lot of calories.

You say you used to drink smoothies, why not have a compliant smoothie at those times. Pack in bananas if you can eat them, nut butters and cocoa with a plant milk you like.

Have dessert in the evening. You like avocados so make chocolate pudding out of them. There's recipes online but it's pretty much avo, sugar or sweetener of some sort and cocoa.

Do continue to keep an eye on your cholesterol and whatnot as you go. Tweak as needed.
User avatar
AnnaSpanna
 
Posts: 1152
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2012 4:25 pm
Location: Hamilton, New Zealand

Re: Need help. This diet is too restrictive for me

Postby wellnesscoach » Mon Mar 02, 2015 6:02 pm

I suggest checking out veganbodybuilding.com, mikemahler.com and thrive.com. Those folks are athletes and vegan and muscle building does not seem to be any issue for them. As far as I know, they eat whole plant fats and restrict oils....really, you don't have to be "no fat" to be healthy. That is mostly for weight loss and cardiovascular disease, or maybe cancer, for the most part.
wellnesscoach
 
Posts: 64
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:13 am

Re: Need help. This diet is too restrictive for me

Postby Melinda » Mon Mar 02, 2015 6:04 pm

I believe Rip Esselstyn says in the E2 book that he consumes 4000-5000calories a day on a plant based diet with no added oils. That is a lot of calories and I certainly see that not being able to tolerate gluten adds to the problem. I think it was one of the plant based docs that said they are not going to tell you to eat off plan. However if you feel the need to do so, that is up to you. We all appreciate the social difficulties, but to most of us, excellent health is worth it. You are young but if you keep eating this way you will be glad you did. 155 pounds on a 5'10" male body generally looks really good! Good luck.
Melinda
 
Posts: 2240
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 1:19 pm
Location: BC Canada

Re: Need help. This diet is too restrictive for me

Postby Dougalling » Mon Mar 02, 2015 6:27 pm

Since you don't need to lose weight, you may want to skip over to the Forks Over Knives people. :)
Image
User avatar
Dougalling
 
Posts: 1944
Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:10 am

Re: Need help. This diet is too restrictive for me

Postby patty » Mon Mar 02, 2015 6:39 pm

@nbomb
Instead of asking "Why Do You Feel Fat After Losing Weight?" Ask, "Why am I Disappointed with my body after losing Weight and wanting to to regain?" I high lighted the suggestion of using a wobble board or seeing a somatic psychologist. I had to look up what a somatic psychologist does. I don't know if you saw that movie where the guy traveled around the country juicing, and he lost his weight but only to regain it. This WOE takes what it takes, while living life on life's terms. Dr. McDougall is the best.. why because he had a stroke at a young age, where he put his priorities in order. That could be anyone of us. Health is wealth. Don't lose it.

Why Do You Feel Fat After Losing Weight?
by Sandra Blakeslee and Matthew Blakeslee
Authors of The Body Has a Mind of Its Own

Why do you still feel fat after losing weight? Why is yo-yo dieting so prevalent?
Are anorexics really being honest in their heart of hearts when they gaze in a mirror at their scrawny, starving bodies and insist they are grossly fat?

You've heard all the standard-issue answers to these questions. You still feel fat because your body's natural set point is out of whack. You yo-yo diet because you simply fell off the celery wagon into a tub of deep fry. Anorexics had absurdly narrow beauty standards flash-burned into their psyches by a relentlessly youth-centric pop culture abetted by shallow, distant parents — that, or they're just plain drama queens.

But a very different set of answers can now be glimpsed in new findings about how your brain maps your body, the space around your body, and your social world. The science of "body maps" reveals how mind and body interact to create your sense of being a whole, autonomous, embodied individual. It also shows how easily that sense can be discombobulated, and how you can bring it back into balance when it falls out of sync.

To grasp the concept of a body map, ask yourself, how do you know your hand belongs to you? How do you know where your body begins and ends? You might answer, "Well, I just know. Because it's mine. I can feel things through it and command it to move how I want."

But this deep-seated sense of control and ownership doesn't just pop into your mind by magic. It arises from a symphony of coordinated activity between various maps of your body — literal maps, not unlike road maps — that are etched into the thinly layered surface of your brain.

For example, your brain has a fundamental touch map, with swaths of tissue dedicated to mapping touch sensations from each finger, hand, cheek, leg, arm, foot and toe, as well as your tongue, teeth, throat, genitals, and every other body part you can name. When someone claps you on the shoulder, you know it was your shoulder and not your neck or your arm because the cells that make up your shoulder map become active while the cells in your neck and arms maps stay quiet.

Right next to your touch map is a second fundamental map, which handles not sensation but motor activity (a fancy term for movement). You can choose which finger to wiggle because each finger is represented separately in your motor map. The cells in the chosen finger map fire, sending commands down to your muscles to make the intended movement happen.

Beyond these two basic maps you have many others that map your muscles, joints, bones and viscera, as well as your immediate action plans, your goals and intentions, and your body's vast library of so-called "muscle memories." Your brain also maps the space around your body. Wave your arm up over your head, out to your side and down to your leg. Each point of that space is mapped inside your brain in relation to your body.

In other words, your brain contains a sprawling network of body maps that are always interacting — the vast majority of it occurring outside of consciousness — to give you that deceptively self-evident sense that, yes, your hands, feet, mouth and every other part of your body, inside and out, belongs to you, is accurately understood and perceived by you, and is at your free will's beck and call.

This view of yourself isn't entirely unfounded, but it glosses over what is happening under the hood — details that can have big consequences for leading you down the garden path into denial, delusion or unwarranted self-scorn.

To grasp why you may still feel fat after losing weight, you need to consider two particular body maps that can strongly conflict, giving you the sense that you are doomed to be fat. One maps the internal felt position of your body. The other is a distributed map concerning your beliefs about your body.

The first map, called the body schema, is based on signals from your muscles, bones, tendons, skin, and joints that tell your brain where you are located in space and how your body is configured. This map is dynamic, meaning it changes from moment to moment as you move around in the world. It also contains memories of how your muscles engage to produce different actions and postures. And it incorporates your ability to balance your body against the force of gravity.

When you lose a significant amount of weight, your body schema will update itself accordingly. The unconscious signals coming up from your body into your brain reflect a thinner, lighter, more flexible self. Your clothes (which are also incorporated into your body schema — but that's another story) fit differently. Your belt is a notch or two smaller. Your old jeans are loose.

And yet, like millions of others before you who have successfully toned up and slimmed down, you may still feel fat. The signals from your thinner body schema are not percolating all the way up into consciousness. Sure, you notice you look somehow thinner in the mirror, a little bit, maybe, but that is not how you feel. You feel fat, and you continue to see all your former pudginess because another body-mapping system is trumping your schema. It is called the body image, and it is composed of a more widely distributed collection of mental images, memories, beliefs and opinions about your body.

Your body image stems primarily from experiences in childhood and adolescence. Like political and religious beliefs, your beliefs about your body — I am fat and unattractive; my body is disgusting and frightening; and so on — are built up from what you see around you, what people who are close to you say, and how people in your society behave. For example, a young girl who is teased mercilessly about being flat chested may never think of her body as being normal. A little boy who is teased for having pop-out ears may never, despite later changes in proportions to his face, stop seeing a freak staring back at him through the looking glass.

Thus your body image, held in memory and language circuits throughout your brain, can easily overwhelm your slimmed-down body schema. You get discouraged and regain the weight you can't stop believing in anyway. Your yo-yo dieting begins another new cycle.

Fortunately, there are ways to redress this schema-image disconnect. For example, wobble boards used by personal trainers bring your body schema into sharp relief, forcing you to attend to the signals you may normally tune out because they frighten or discomfit you. Another route is to go see a somatic psychologist, a therapist who guides patients to stay bodily self-aware and viscerally attuned as they talk about their troubles.

And anorexics? Recent research shows that people with this deadly condition may abnormally map their bodies and the space around their bodies, especially with regard to vision and touch. This is why anorexics literally see themselves as fat when looking in a mirror. Give an anorexic a pair of calipers and ask her to open it to equal the thickness of her arm, and she will open it to the width of Popeye's biceps. And she is not making it up. Her brain maps have become miswired. With this new brain-based understanding of anorexic sensory misperception, new therapies are being tested to reconnect abnormal body maps. If they end up working, lives will be saved.

©2007 Sandra Blakeslee, Matthew Blakeslee http://www.allspiritfitness.com/library ... 907a.shtml


Aloha, patty
patty
 
Posts: 6977
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:46 am

Re: Need help. This diet is too restrictive for me

Postby roundcoconut » Mon Mar 02, 2015 7:32 pm

scooterpie wrote:Here are Dr McD's words, "If you do 10 percent, you get 10 percent of the results. You do 90 percent, you get 90 percent of the results." I guess that's his homage to transitioning--sort of. It just gets no sympathy on this board:-)


Scooterpie, thanks for finding this quote for me. I've been wanting to put it in my signature, or something along those lines.

I tend to think that what we need, is to lower the bar a little bit, so we can include more people in this way of eating. I don't mean "water down the program or applaud stupid choices", but simply allow ourselves to encourage people who are 95%ers, or working up to it.

I noticed that a long-time member of these boards has left for now, who was admittedly a 95%-er, Ornish-style. I struggle at the idea of driving people away for doing exactly what Dr. McDougall encourages: doing a large percentage of the work, and getting a large percentage of the benefits.

Just as long as we are still providing correct information about what an ideal diet looks like (so people don't get confused and think they are doing their body any favors by adding more soy, or drinking more smoothies), I think we can open ourselves a little bit, and be a little more welcoming!
User avatar
roundcoconut
 
Posts: 2530
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 11:55 pm

Re: Need help. This diet is too restrictive for me

Postby viv » Mon Mar 02, 2015 7:52 pm

roundcoconut wrote:Just as long as we are still providing correct information about what an ideal diet looks like (so people don't get confused and think they are doing their body any favors by adding more soy, or drinking more smoothies), I think we can open ourselves a little bit, and be a little more welcoming!


Who is "we?" Do you not feel you have been very welcoming?
5'8", Started March 2013
Starting weight: 217
Current weight: 157
60lbs gone--for good!
User avatar
viv
 
Posts: 1622
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:28 pm

Re: Need help. This diet is too restrictive for me

Postby roundcoconut » Mon Mar 02, 2015 8:15 pm

viv wrote:Who is "we?" Do you not feel you have been very welcoming?


Yeah, I think it's fair to say I can be a fanatical hardass at times!

But I think others too can forget how hard it is for people to change their eating habits. So perhaps others too can stand to loosen up and not only me!
User avatar
roundcoconut
 
Posts: 2530
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 11:55 pm

Re: Need help. This diet is too restrictive for me

Postby f1jim » Mon Mar 02, 2015 8:28 pm

No one here has the ability to force anyone to eat anything.....On plan or off plan, the choice is always up to the individual.
Dr. McDougall has set his recommendations for the ideal eating plan. He doesn't hold a gun to anyones head. He hopes you read his information, read the sources of his recommendations, and to whatever extent you buy into it, go forward.
If cravings are a problem there are approaches that work well to minimize them. If the social costs are extremely high there are things that can be done to help with that.
Some people know the health risks of smoking but continue to smoke. Some people use alcohol extensively knowing there is risk. Life is a bundle of choices we all get to make. We can make good choices and bad choices. We don't even have to agree on what is good or bad.
No one here is going to pressure you into anything. You, like all of us are here by choice. Tomorrow I may say this isn't for me. It's a wonderful thing to have a life that allows us to make such a wide array of choices.
Do not feel pressure to eat this way. Only eat this way of your heart and mind say it's good for you. No one here is comfortable thinking they are pushing you into something you are not comfortable with.
Some of us have been enjoying eating this way for over 10 years, 7 for me. Others come and can't stomach 2 days. What can we say? All we can do is express what this program may have done for us and what we hope it will deliver in the future.
We hope you will continue but we certainly understand when someone does not.
Good luck and good health whatever you decide.
f1jim
While adopting this diet and lifestyle program I have reversed my heart disease, high cholesterol, hypertension, and lost 54 lbs. You can follow my story at https://www.drmcdougall.com/james-brown/
User avatar
f1jim
 
Posts: 11350
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 4:45 pm
Location: Pacifica, CA

Re: Need help. This diet is too restrictive for me

Postby scooterpie » Mon Mar 02, 2015 8:34 pm

You're welcome roundcoconut, and here is the interview from 2012 where the quotation came from--it's pretty good: http://www.examiner.com/article/intervi ... -mcdougall
scooterpie
 
Posts: 1367
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 10:08 am

Re: Need help. This diet is too restrictive for me

Postby patty » Mon Mar 02, 2015 9:05 pm

scooterpie wrote:You're welcome roundcoconut, and here is the interview from 2012 where the quotation came from--it's pretty good: http://www.examiner.com/article/intervi ... -mcdougall


Great article! I love how he says no one gets rich on selling a sack of potatoes!

I emailed it to my daughter whose doctor wanted her to consider blood pressure medicine:) They are the worse dealers. I am so grateful to Dr McDougall and Jeff Novick.

Aloha, patty
patty
 
Posts: 6977
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:46 am

PreviousNext

Return to The Lounge

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 66 guests



Welcome!

Sign up to receive our regular articles, recipes, and news about upcoming events.