Type 1 Diabetic - 'healthy' hypoglycaemia treatment?

For those questions and discussions on the McDougall program that don’t seem to fit in any other forum.

Moderators: JeffN, f1jim, Heather McDougall, John McDougall, carolve

Type 1 Diabetic - 'healthy' hypoglycaemia treatment?

Postby anniebovs » Sat May 18, 2013 8:02 pm

Hello

I have been plant-strong for 10 days now and love the way I feel, and am completely committed to the lifestyle - I am evangelically cooking plant-strong food and 'treats' for all my family and friends :-D

I have had a few hypos along the way, which I have treated with dried figs and 100% apple juice. I would love to completely avoid sugars but have come to the conclusion that as a Type 1, this is one level of perfection that I am unlikely to reach 100% of the time!

Today, I have had 8 hypos! I am not disheartened as I see this as a sign/proof that the lifestyle is working for me (I have reduced my basal insulin by 27% already with a further 2 unit reduction tomorrow methinks!)

Do you have any suggestions as to what would be the best choice for me for treating hypos? i.e. the healthiest, fastest acting choice I could make whilst at the gym/during work hours? Dried fruit is fine when I am at home or with friends who understand that I may need to just sit down for 10 minutes.

I would be eternally grateful for any suggestions.

Surprisingly, that many hypos in a day *should* leave me completely exhausted but I'm still pretty 'zingy' so yet another positive for the plant-strong way of being :-D

Thank you for all the information that I've already found on this forum

Annie
anniebovs
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat May 18, 2013 7:50 pm

Re: Type 1 Diabetic - 'healthy' hypoglycaemia treatment?

Postby didi » Sun May 19, 2013 6:44 pm

Annie, I hope KensCircus sees your post. I believe he is a type 1 in very good control on a plant based diet. Perhaps you can pm him and ask your question. I am a type 2 on no meds so do not have hypos.

didi
didi
 
Posts: 2780
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2010 3:35 pm

Re: Type 1 Diabetic - 'healthy' hypoglycaemia treatment?

Postby didi » Mon May 20, 2013 3:24 am

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=33947

Annie, here is a thread from this group in which KensCircus explains how he improved his sugars. You will have to scroll down until you find it but the whole thread is informative and interesting.

didi
didi
 
Posts: 2780
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2010 3:35 pm

Re: Type 1 Diabetic - 'healthy' hypoglycaemia treatment?

Postby anniebovs » Mon May 20, 2013 4:42 am

Thank you didi :-)

I have tried to pm KensCircus but having sent it, I can't find it so I will try again. The pm facility isn't currently letting me 'search for users' so I shall leave it a while.

Thanks again for responding (it was my first post!) :)

Annie
anniebovs
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat May 18, 2013 7:50 pm

Re: Type 1 Diabetic - 'healthy' hypoglycaemia treatment?

Postby pinkrose » Mon May 20, 2013 4:47 am

anniebovs wrote:Thank you didi :-)

I have tried to pm KensCircus but having sent it, I can't find it so I will try again. The pm facility isn't currently letting me 'search for users' so I shall leave it a while.

Thanks again for responding (it was my first post!) :)

Annie


Annie, you can try to PM him as a reply to his post. However, since you are a new user you may not have this feature yet. In the meantime, try to digest his post about this! :nod:

Welcome aboard! :-D
User avatar
pinkrose
 
Posts: 4831
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2009 4:18 am
Location: Nanning, China

Re: Type 1 Diabetic - 'healthy' hypoglycaemia treatment?

Postby anniebovs » Mon May 20, 2013 5:06 am

Thanks pinkrose :-)

I have already read through the threads and links posted above, but it's not really relevant to my question. I agree with Ken and others about the fat causing more insulin resistance - I have been Type 1 from the age of 4 and I'm nearly 45, so I have some experience.

Having gone plant-strong almost a fortnight ago, my insulin levels are definitely reducing and causing me some very severe and sudden hypos - these need to be treated as quickly as possible otherwise I will collapse basically!!

So, I'm really just looking for suggestions for healthy and quick-acting diabetic hypoglycaemia treatments and was wondering what others, following this lifestyle use.

At the gym and work, where I need a really quick-acting solution, I used to use a glucose sports drink but the thought of drinking such 'poison' is not appealing you see.

It is testament to the lifestyle that I am currently having a LOT of hypos - almost non-stop (exhausting!!) for the last 2 days i.e. this means that my insulin needs are reducing which is a brilliant thing just that it can be life-threatening also (particularly during nighttime - I am currently waking up every 3 hours to monitor my blood glucose levels, until things stabilise!)

I don't think I can get any better treatment than fruit juice and dried fruit. I'm doing so well that I feel a 'failure' having to take sugar in any form but hey ho, I AM a Type 1 after all so 'needs must' eh!

Thank you for responding :-)
anniebovs
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat May 18, 2013 7:50 pm

Re: Type 1 Diabetic - 'healthy' hypoglycaemia treatment?

Postby KensCircus » Mon May 20, 2013 7:21 am

Hi Annie and welcome aboard!

I don’t mean to be so elusive, but my work schedule keeps me off the forum far more than I would like.
It’s great to hear from other T1’s as well as other starch based vegans. I started a long time ago and was so thrilled to have discovered this forum. Until last November, I knew of no other starch based vegans, or even any other T1 diabetics – with one exception - which is another whole story. Here is my first post: http://www.drmcdougall.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=33122

About the lows; I have found that riding the low side, by balancing the insulin, starches and activity offers the best control and using orange juice (the best) for tweaking. This results in the lowest level of insulin and most stable glucose. Yes, fruit juice is frowned on, but I only use it for control, so it isn’t a significant percentage of my diet. I haven’t found anything that works better – even the commercial glucose tablets. Dried fruit is too slow and can cause an out of sync insulin / glucose action rate. I call that cycling. Cycling is not a good thing and is not easy to get it back in sync. You want something that is a fast – but not too fast and can be burned off easily. Glucose tablets, or any refined sugars are too fast – again upsetting the insulin / glucose synchronization. The OJ can keep you going through any activity. You can learn the feel of you blood glucose transitioning below 80 mg/dl - if it is a rapid transition. Eighty is a good transition point as the OJ can arrest the transition without pushing it over and you can just keep going. I vary the OJ quantity by the transition rate. With a lot of testing you can learn the transition rate “feel”. My typical OJ “dose” range is about two to four ounces. I always keep some within reach. I feel it is my lifeline. Apple juice works about the same. Also, if the transition is slow, eating a small orange (mandarin, etc.) works better. Again – it’s a matter of matching the synchronization. If the need for OJ is more than two or three times a day, then you are riding the low side too aggressively. Either bump up the starch or reduce your insulin.

What I love about being a T1 is that I am in control of my metabolism and with diligence can even outperform “normal” people’s blood glucose control. Ok, that’s a tall statement and almost a stretch – like I said, with “diligence”. The only bad part is that this “benefit” requires a lot of responsibility, but, the rewards make that responsibility more than worth the effort. The thing that makes it so worth the effort is that I got a taste of what “feel-good” really feels like and never what to lose that! The really good part is that it just keeps getting better! Here, now at 60, I’m stronger, have more muscle mass, more stamina, and more “feel-good” than I had at 50. At 50, I had more than at 40. At 40 I had more than at 30. I don’t know where the peak is (when old starts), but it isn’t in sight yet! (Prior to 30, I was just like anyone else I knew.)

This was typed in haste so I hope it makes sense. Again welcome to the McDougall forum! :D If you need any clarification or questions, please let me know. I’ll respond as quickly as possible.

Thanks for listening,

Ken
User avatar
KensCircus
 
Posts: 321
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:41 pm
Location: Austin, Texas

Re: Type 1 Diabetic - 'healthy' hypoglycaemia treatment?

Postby mike at the river » Mon May 20, 2013 12:42 pm

Hi, as a type I 1/2 diabetic on insulin I can certainly relate.. i find that OJ does work well, altho I always carry some hard candies or lifesavers in my pocket, but rarely use them. I found the tabs and gels hard to carry, tho I have some old Dex 4 tabs at home. I usually have raisins with me, at work, or in the car, and probably eat too many of them, but can't test all the time. Dr Furhman's new book "The End of Diabetes" was interesting and unlike many, he did write about type 1. However, I found his recipes and such too hard for me to follow, also not sure about his de-emphasis on whole grains, starches. I find that Dr Neal Barnard, Esselstyn, and McDougall easier to follow- but it is true that I cannot "eat all the starches I want", as too much brown rice for example, eaten at one time, will spike my Blood Glucose, and keep it high for some time. Dr Furhman likes more beans. The low-fat, whole food, plant based diet has reduced my cholesterol, LDL, and lowered insulin resistance (but my problem, like all type 1's, is the pancreas). Interestingly, when my MD ordered a NMR lipoprofile test (which shows LDL size, etc.), it included a LP-IR score which shows a value of 8, which is verylow insulin resistance. Didn't know about this score or that the test had it, but it is very good to know, if accurate, that it shows good results from the low fat WFPB diet. Good luck to you...Mike
mike at the river
 
Posts: 231
Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2012 1:52 am

Re: Type 1 Diabetic - 'healthy' hypoglycaemia treatment?

Postby anniebovs » Mon May 20, 2013 2:44 pm

Hi Ken (and Mike too :-D )

Wow and wow again! Thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to post that fantastic reply, and for your previous posts. Yes, I completely understood all of it (and sat here 'whooping')

You are truly inspirational! Bravo for all the work you put in to figure out you own diet as you did! I LOVE your engineering approach. I've never been able to manage it, despite years of effort, due to (oh, how perfectly you put it!) the 'cycling' - I could never find my baseline and the healthcare team I have, whilst lovely, have never been able to answer more than the most basic of my mad questions :-D (My insulin needs are usually higher before menstruation and then low for the first 3 days which didn't help in finding the baseline - it took me a long, long time to figure that out and even longer to convince my HCPs - hard to see the woods for the trees!) My GP/MD also thinks that my A1c is okay at 7.0 but I don't because that is only an average of all the ups and downs and horrible cycling.

So yes - I have been 'cycling' for years (on and off) and I HATE it with a passion. It makes me feel so bad and lethargic.

I too have had my 'scary year'. I recently left a job which was making me depressed - 7 day weeks, 70 hours (for nearly 2 years - it was bad and healthy eating was really difficult), this followed the end of a long-term relationship - then I sat around in panic and depression for a while and then, had a heart attack and a stent put in, last May - it's my anniversary this weekend in fact!

So, I lived through a few very fearful months, not feeling good, unable to get the control of in the 90s where I feel good, and with no energy, and thinking I'd not ever be able to feel 'good' again and that I was 'old before my time' but after only a few days of being completely 'plant-strong', I feel completely amazing - more amazing than the periods in life where I've not been cycling and know I will not look back. As you well know, feeling this amazing is such a contrast to the 'cycling'!!

I am also with you on the 'food is not recreational' for us thing - I find my friends and family are uncomfortable with my 'stance' though!

Also, despite the complications, I too am glad that I had the heart attack - it bought me here for a start and I feel great and hopeful and at least know I'm doing the best for my body. I am already feeling so much better than over the last few months - this is bounty enough and I know there's more on the way :-D If I only have a certain time on this mortal coil, I would like to at least not spend it 'cycling'. The only thing I find 'tedious' is the converting volumes to weights but I'm sure I'll get the hang of it soon.

I have 2 weeks before I start a new job, so this is a good time for me to be experimenting with recipes etc (I suspect I may also be celiac but I'm just keeping an eye on that and will attack that later - something to put all this excess energy into!) Oooh! You're right about that too - when I've been well and having a good patch with brilliant BGs, I have much more energy than anyone I know!

Well, it seems I have rambled and not touched on the actual post! Sorry!

Thank you for that info - I will use apple juice (hard to find non-concentrated around here - rural Wales, UK) as I bought a stock the other day. I'll probably get used to the transition rates quite quickly, now that I CAN see the woods! Thank you so much!

I rarely have 'serious' and 'sudden' hypos but the last two days have been bonkers! So I realise the need to adjust my insulin and this is just temporary. Basal (Lantus) already down from 24u to 20u and bolus (Humalog) down by about 18%).

However, yesterday's lows (I was in the 20s and 40s which rarely happens to me) and almost (wait for it..) 100g of carbs in dried fruit & apple juice resulted in a BG of 300+ this morning (which I've not had in years!).

I kept calm, assumed that this must be a 'hypo rebound' due to the severe lows and had a very low carb breakfast and as it was slow coming back down, I avoided lunch (to avoid the complications of insulin and carbs on board) and by my evening meal I'm back down in the 90s which is where I like to be.

Anyway! That's quite enough from me and thank you so very much for your engineering brain, pleased to meet you and more power to ya! :-D

Annie

p.s. I had never had contact with fellow diabetics either but I found a good community on Twitter, last year, under the hashtag #doc. I don't contribute much and I doubt there's much that can be taught to you, but it's there, and friendly
anniebovs
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat May 18, 2013 7:50 pm

Re: Type 1 Diabetic - 'healthy' hypoglycaemia treatment?

Postby KensCircus » Tue May 21, 2013 7:02 am

Hi Annie,

Yep, control is indeed more radical with this way of eating, but that is because your system doesn’t have a “wet blanket” of fat thrown over it. However, the “radical” nature is a good thing, putting you in sharper control. It is complex and may take a while to get everything in sync, and learn all the cues and cause-and-effects, but when you do - life becomes wonderful!

I really feel for you regarding your early life as a T1. I am so grateful to the fill-in doctor that saved my life with his simple, casual statement that I had to figure it out myself and that I can’t rely on any doctor for my diabetes management. I have to wonder if he is even aware of what a lifesaving statement that was. I have no doubt that I would also have ended up with a heart attack – at the least. The only other T1 I have known was my niece. She diligently followed her doctor’s advice – and died of multiple organ failure just before her 24th birthday. I am the only member of my family that doesn’t have some sort of cardiovascular disease – and I’m the diabetic!

My “safety” juices are typically those little concentrated apple juices in the six ounce single serving bottles. They are easy to carry around and have a great shelf life. I keep some in my car, office and lunch box – which I carry with me everywhere. If the lunch box is inconvenient, I wear a jacket with a pocket for the juice. I don’t need them much. The one in my lunch box has been there for a few months now. Typically, I have to change them out due to being out of date.

You are absolutely right about the danger of going low – like under 30 mg/dl. I call that “crashing”. The worst of my crashes occurred in the hospital, under doctor’s care, with massive convulsions, soaked in sweat, etc. I guess I have had about three since then, but not into the convulsive state.

Yes, I have the same problem with dried fruit. It is too concentrated and the conversion rate doesn’t match the Humalog action rate – the sync thing.

My Lantus dose is currently 15u and Humalog from 4u to 12u, depending on previous, current and expected activity, meals, etc.

Got to go – boss is calling!!

Thanks for posting!

Ken
User avatar
KensCircus
 
Posts: 321
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:41 pm
Location: Austin, Texas

Re: Type 1 Diabetic - 'healthy' hypoglycaemia treatment?

Postby anniebovs » Wed May 22, 2013 5:43 am

Hi Ken :)

Sorry for the delay - I wasn't online yesterday.

I am loving the 'radical' control - everything is more 'immediate' without that fat blanket (you have a way with words!) I am beginning to see the woods for the trees now that I've stopped cycling

I'm off to the nearest town tomorrow to source the little juices although I'm hoping I'll need them as infrequently as you. I've never seen them in bottles, only mini cartons.

No hypos yesterday and nice steady sugars, a steady amount of activity and a full belly! A few glugs of applejuice whilst at the gym did the job just fine and seemingly by 'instinct'. That diabetic instinct of mine has been great over the years but, once again, often clouded by the fat blanket etc which is why this 'radical' control is wonderful! I am able to look at my BG records and clearly see the causes.

I think I'll use my stockpile of dried fruit to make oat biscuits for friends and family and stick to my apple juice

I'm sorry to hear about your niece - how very sad, particularly when she 'followed the rules'. You have saved and protected yourself from pain and long-term complications and worry with your diligence and engineer's approach! And bless that doctor and his comment to you

Lantus still at 20u with Humalog currently at around 10 - 14u, dependant and activity etc.

Everyone is telling me how well and 'rosy-cheeked' I'm looking, after only a few days into the plant-strong/healthy vegan (still not sure what to call myself)

Oh! Apologies for the huge post - I hadn't realised how long it would look once posted, but I was delighted to find another Type 1 (and Mike! Are you still reading along Mike??) - I wonder how many of us there are in the world? I have thought perhaps to write a blog, just to share recipes and joyfulness - with mention of diabetes perhaps. I am a person with diabetes, not a 'diabetic' :-)

Thanks for your comments and help Ken. It's really helped with seeing the woods for the trees and the discovery of fruit juice as a hypo treatment (I've never really tried it before) is brilliant. It treats and then disappears - doesn't hang around like the dried fruit!

Off to experiment with cookies for friends now 8)

Have a good day!

Annie
anniebovs
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat May 18, 2013 7:50 pm

Re: Type 1 Diabetic - 'healthy' hypoglycemia treatment?

Postby mike at the river » Wed May 22, 2013 11:36 am

Hi, I'm still here. I also love the phrases "radical control" and especially "fat blanket". Some old diabetic docs like Dr Bernstein recommend more fat because of its buffering effect. To some extent, possible Dr Fuhrman does also, at least he likes beans and "resistant starch" more than regular rice and potatoes. I don't claim to really understand his system.
My insulin regimen is 'old school", and probably different from most, as my C-peptide shows I still produce "some", but a low amount, of endogenous insulin. I take 10 U Lantus at bedtime, and usually 9 U of Humulin 70/30 in the am, and 5 U 70/30 pm, about 6 PM. I often only test 2 x day, before the 70/30, in the AM, and PM. My meal time and and meal amounts are not very regular, as I don't really cook, or have much energy after work. Usually microwave sweet potato or brown rice, or oatmeal, plus a very large green salad with ground flaxseed/walnuts. Try to eat a banana (if not too ripe and an apple/day).
I eat low fat, except for take out soups (steam Kale on the top) and tabouli or humus from our COOP, they usually add olive oil. So, I guess I don't really have 'tight' control, and am afraid to use rapid acting multiple injections. The "fat blanket" if it existed without the fat, would not seem a bad idea, tho I admire your tight control. Good health to all of you...Mike
mike at the river
 
Posts: 231
Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2012 1:52 am

Re: Type 1 Diabetic - 'healthy' hypoglycaemia treatment?

Postby KensCircus » Thu May 23, 2013 7:10 am

Annie,

I am delightfully surprised at your rate of improvement! It takes a while to purge the fat effects. Additionally, as the “fat blanket” is lifted, the mitochondria can convert glucose to energy uninhibited. You can actually feel that uninhibited energy feeling - making you want to burn it. It is a powerful “freedom” feeling. This prompts your cells to grow more mitochondria yielding even more energy. I suspect you still have a lot more energy coming your way. In simple terms, starch is the fuel – your accelerator petal and fat is your brake petal. Or, carbohydrates are my friend and fats are my enemy.

Mike,

Yes, the tight control can seem very consuming. Well, it is, but it becomes a way of life and the magnitude of the “feel-good” makes the effort so worthwhile. Once you get used to it, it is not so consuming. Much like learning to walk for the first time. At first it is overwhelmingly complicated and you fall a lot, then, eventually it becomes so second nature it is no big deal. It’s just like any other bodily requirements – like eating, going to the bathroom, etc. Just something to do to live – I mean really live - and feel good. I suspect that in your case, however, it might actually be a little harder because your body still makes some insulin. I could imagine that being somewhat of a "monkey wrench" in the works. In any event I think getting the fat out would have to be a benefit for everyone.

Here is a post regarding what just a “little” oil will do: http://www.drmcdougall.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=36120

Gotta go – work is calling…

I really hope this isn’t too preachy. I don’t mean to be, but I think I get carried away sometimes.

Ken
User avatar
KensCircus
 
Posts: 321
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:41 pm
Location: Austin, Texas

Re: Type 1 Diabetic - 'healthy' hypoglycaemia treatment?

Postby mike at the river » Thu May 23, 2013 11:50 am

Ken, thanks for your reply...I just wroter a 3 page answer, but the computer ate it. I give up!...Mike
mike at the river
 
Posts: 231
Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2012 1:52 am

Re: Type 1 Diabetic - 'healthy' hypoglycaemia treatment?

Postby KensCircus » Fri May 24, 2013 6:33 am

mike at the river wrote:Ken, thanks for your reply...I just wroter a 3 page answer, but the computer ate it. I give up!...Mike

Mike!
I feel that pain. really hate when that happens!

Just be healthy and happy. That’s what matters.

Ken
User avatar
KensCircus
 
Posts: 321
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:41 pm
Location: Austin, Texas

Next

Return to The Lounge

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests


cron

Welcome!

Sign up to receive our regular articles, recipes, and news about upcoming events.