Do I need a lot of veggies?

[Gwen]

Another question...
When eating the McDougall way, starchy carbs take center stage, which is great. How many servings of veggies should go with that?
Other low carb plans put such an emphasis on protein and tons of veggies, that I don't want to eat so many veggies, then end of eating other not so good foods.
If I could do the majority of my foods with starchy carbs, and not so many veggies, I'd do great.
I do fine with fruits, but not eating enough veggies makes me feel like a failure.
Any advice?
Gwen

[pinkrose]

You can find many opinions about this here, Gwen. It depends on your goals. If you want to be well nourished with the minimum amount of veggies and are not concerned about weight management, perhaps around a pound of colorful veggies daily is enough.

If you want to lose weight easily, you can follow the MWL, increase your intake of veggies and decrease your intake of starches and fruits a bit to accomplish this. Many here want do that and may eat two pounds or more of colorful veggies daily. I think it is easier to eat this high volume of veggies if they are steamed or boiled--not raw.

I like to eat at least a pound of leafy greens in addition to other green veggies and red or yellow veggies daily. That works well for me but maybe you would be happier (and still adequately nourished) eating less veggies...especially if you are happy with your weight management.

[Gwen]

I really don't like cold salads/veggies. I haven't found a no fat dressing that makes it taste any better. Walden Farms dressings aren't bad. I do like fresh spinich, but mostly, I prefer veggies steamed, esp. broccoli and cauliflower.
Are canned green beans OK?
I'm not terribly overweight, but would like to lose about 20 lbs.
If I could cut out the Dr. Pepper, I'd probably be OK. It's my one treat, and I can't seem to quit it.That's why I also had the question about if I'm eating more carbs, will my cravings for sweets go down.

[ncyg46]

lose the Dr.Pepper!!!! Course I have my own vices but drink water most days with a few beers! Don't drink any soda...can't stand the stuff!

[victw]

Why not enter the veggies you like into the cron o meter and figure out what mix it takes to get your vitamins and minerals covered.

You don't have to like them all - just enough to cover all the basis.

The veggies help with Calorie Density - so if that concept isn't clear consider getting Jeff's DVD - which covers the topic.

Best wishes.
Vic

[noelalexis2000]

I tend to eat mostly starches and have to remind myself to eat my salad everyday just for variety!

[frozenveg]

I agree with Debbie, in that I was burned out on "lettuce leaves" after 5 years on the South Beach, low-carb diet. I love this way of eating because we can have cooked vegetables--my name ain't frozenveg 'cos I eat them that way! And pinkrose is right--it's easier to eat a goodly amount of vegetables cooked, rather than raw, if you aren't super-fond of veggies.

[mountain]

If there is something which is healthy for me but I don't particularly like the taste of (very rare ), I say: "I eat to live not live to eat" and that solves my little problem.

But try to find some veggies you like, raw or steamed or in soups and try to put them into your daily food plan.

[Carol]

I think Dr. McD says to start with 70% starch and 30% veggies. You can play around with that mix so long as the starch doesn't go below 50% (I think that's what I remember). And that's because you may no longer feel satisfied, which can trigger other bad behaviors.

But as others have mentioned, each day is different and you will find yourself listening to what your body is telling you to eat -- some days more veggies, other days more starch.

Basically, keep it simple.

[Lani Muelrath]

Another question...
When eating the McDougall way, starchy carbs take center stage, which is great. How many servings of veggies should go with that?
Other low carb plans put such an emphasis on protein and tons of veggies, that I don't want to eat so many veggies, then end of eating other not so good foods.
If I could do the majority of my foods with starchy carbs, and not so many veggies, I'd do great.
I do fine with fruits, but not eating enough veggies makes me feel like a failure.
Any advice?
Gwen

Hey Gwen,

Dr. McDougall's simple rule of thumb is:

To lose weight:

Hasty: 1/3 starches, 2/3 veggies
Rapid: 1/2 starches, 1/2 veggies
Moderate: 2/3 starches, 1/3 veggies

Each person can budge the percentages around as needed, of course.

My simple guideline that I use with my clients and group coaching programs is: Just imagine at days end that you have all your food piled on one giant tray for that day. Half the tray should be piled with starchy veggies and whole grains, the other half would be vegetables. There would be about a cup of beans and a couple of pieces of fruit on top.

There are other details to help budge the weight loss, yet I'll leave it at that for right now.

Cheers!
Lani

Editing to adjust labels on categories as listed above. From page 73 of MWL.

[Carol]

I pulled the following quote from one of the Newsletters about Maximum Weight Loss: It speaks to percentage of starch to veggie.

Eat Green and Yellow Vegetables:

Typically “popular diets” recommend that you eat large amounts of green and yellow vegetables, which are very low in calories, thus filling your stomach with low energy bulk (they are high in nutrients, however). I suggest about one-third of the meal should be from these low-calorie vegetables for accelerating weight loss. If you are desperate, then you may push that amount to one-half of your plate (measured roughly by your eye).

However, be careful that you do not eat so many of these low-calorie vegetable foods that your meals are no longer enjoyable and satisfying for your hunger drive. You need the starchy selections for sustaining satisfaction. No population of people has ever lived on a diet based on low-calorie green and yellow vegetables. All successful societies have centered their diets on starches (rice, potatoes, beans, corn, etc.) – and you must do the same for long-term victory.

[Lani Muelrath]

Hold on, this sounds like going back to the mentality of "carbs make you fat". What about in the China study when it is discussed how carbs are burned more than animal foods. Also, people of lower wealth in China eat mostly white rice, i think. Probably at least 70%. Ask any person who is right from China (or Japan, or Korea...). They still eat more calories and are thinner. So how can it be true that too many carbs will not let you loose weight? This goes against what the data show. Can someone explain this?

Sorry, I assume everyone knows the China study, because that's how I found this website. But if someone can clarify, that would be great. I feel like "fitness experts" are always going to tell you that carbs make you fat because it is so ingrained, but I truly wonder about how legitimate this claim is.

Anyone?

Hi veganscientist,

Each person is different as to what percentage of their calories they would need from the more calorie-dense starches relative to low-calorie-density veggies. Some people do better at lowering their weight with a greater percentage of greens and high water content veggies. This is not at all saying that 'carbs make you fat'.

I went to my MWL book to get the exact language about the ratios and edited my post to use Dr. McDougall's exact language. It was my error to put in a 'gain' category; at the same time, those who DO need to gain on a plant-based diet would increase their percentage of high-calorie-density foods. Starchy vegetables and whole grains are more calorie dense so upping these edibles would make sense.

It is possible to gain on any calorie source if you override your satiety guides. As Jeff has pointed out, there is a distinction between 'eat as much as you want of anything' and 'to satisfaction of hunger' with these guidelines.

Lani

[Lani Muelrath]

Have you read the China study? Because I still don't see how that logic can be consistent with the data. Particularly the graph of calories consumed vs. weight. If carbohydrates are in fact burned off more efficiently than animal foods, eating only plants (no oil, sugar, anything added) should lead to weight loss no matter what the proportions. Hence the graph of people in china consuming 30% more calories, while still having 20% less body weight. Can you explain?

Yes, I've read CS and am currently in the middle of my studies at Cornell in Dr. Campbell's Plant-Based Nutrition course.

Here is a response to a similar question from JeffN that may provide some insights. It is within the context of calorie density. The original link for the thread, in case you'd like to read the conversations, is here:

http://www.drmcdougall.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6032

Burgess wrote:
Every element of any program should be kept in context. In my understanding, these are the principles of the McDougall Program regular diet:

1. Whole foods.
2. Plant foods.
3. Starch centered.
4. A wide variety in each of three cateogories (fruit, vegs, starch).
5. Eat as much as you want until full.

The fourth element kills the idea of eating nothing but oranges or nothing but corn. The fifth element kills the idea of compulsive eating.

It is important to focus on all the fundamental principles not just one.


Unlimited does not mean unlimited in the sense that you can eat all you want of anything.

What it means is that if you follow the principles of the program, especially of the Maximum Weight Loss program, you will be able to eat all you want until you are comfortably full, and still lose weight.

The reason, as TominTN pointed out is due to calorie density. Many many studies have been done in the last few decades confirming this. If you allow people to eat "ad libitum" or all they want till the are comfortably full, from low calorie dense foods, they will lose weight, not be hungry and do not have to count calories.

Of course, calories still count, but it becomes almost impossible to over consume calories from the foods you choose if you follow these recommendations.

The numbers Tom gave are very close, so let me adjust them slightly

These are averages

Fresh Veggies are around 100 cal/lb
Fresh Fruits around 250-300 cal/lb
Starchy Veggies/Intact Whole Grains around 450-500 cal/lb
Legumes around 550-600 cal/lb
Processed Grains (even if their Whole grain) around 1200-1500 cal/lb
Nuts/Seeds around 2800 cal/lb
Oils around 4000 cal/lb

What they found is if the calorie density of the food is below 400 calories per pound, not matter how much they eat, they all lost weight.

Between 600-800 calories per pound, with some moderate exercise, they all lost weight.

Between 800-1200 calories per pound, people gained weight, except for those with very high activity levels

Over 1200 calories per pound, everyone gained weight.

These numbers are also inline with other recommendations.

The recent WCF/AICR report on cancer recommends that the average calorie density of our diets be around 550-600 calories per pound, to avoid obesity and weight problems.

The Okinawan diet, before Western influence, was around 600-650 calories per pound

So, knowing all this, if you look at the numbers, it all makes sense.

A starch based diet, made up of starchy vegetables and intact whole grains along with some fruit and veggies, will have a calorie density under 500 calories per pound and maybe even 400 calorie per pound. It would be near impossible to overeat.

You can also see the problem with many of the "low fat" diets that focused on processed whole grains, like whole wheat bread, crackers, dry cereals. At 1200-1500 calories per pound, if they become a large part of the diet, they can raise the overall calorie density and make it much easier to overeat on calories and easy to gain weight and/or not lose weight, even with a higher activity level. Hence the principles of the MWL program is to avoid those foods, or really limit them.

In Health
Jeff Novick, MS, RD

[tanawana]

All successful societies have centered their diets on starches (rice, potatoes, beans, corn, etc.) – and you must do the same for long-term victory.

If you use the 'population of people' argument, you can say that almost all populations eat meat and most eat dairy, so we should too. There is clearly a problem with that logic.

I agree with you to an extent, but I think the key word is successful in this explanation maybe. That is if I'm following correctly

[dstewart]

Gwen, most importantly, you can't overeat vegetables. Canned vegetables do typically have a lot of salt, even if they're "low-salt" or "low-sodium," but yes, they can be all right. Here's Dr McD's list of canned veggies: http://www.drmcdougall.com/pack_canned_beans.html

Lani's answer is long and brilliant (teamwork -- Lani and Jeff Novick!). It is a closed system, so to speak. If you follow the priorities, you can eat what you want and you'll get what you need and you won't overeat and you'll lose weight if you need to or stay the right weight if you're already there.

The Dr Pepper isn't helping, of course. It's dense with calories, and a shot of intense sugary taste pleasure (see Lisle and Goldhamer, The Pleasure Trap, to understand what this is doing to you).

Another thing is... really, you can actually come to like things that are healthful but which you don't now like---the fresh vegetables, raw vegetables. I do think it takes some addiction-breaking--again, see The Pleasure Trap to understand this (also Fuhrman's "Eat to Live" has good information on this, with details on detoxification from unhealthful foods you may be habituated to, like Dr Pepper's sugar blast). But once those are overcome, you may find you like some things that you didn't used to like.