811rv, what do the experts here think? Esp John

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Re: 811rv, what do the experts here think? Esp John

Postby f1jim » Wed Feb 22, 2012 7:25 pm

Generally, it's very hard to achieve your caloric needs based just on fruits. It's not impossible but very challenging. Starches are much easier to fill up on and storing them has distinct advantages over fruit. Many have found following an 80/10/10 diet very difficult to follow long term.
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While adopting this diet and lifestyle program I have reversed my heart disease, high cholesterol, hypertension, and lost 54 lbs. You can follow my story at http://www.drmcdougall.com/star.html Scroll to James Brown
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Re: 811rv, what do the experts here think? Esp John

Postby f1jim » Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:14 am

The fruitarian diet is another plan built upon eating in a manner for those in a specific environmental circumstance. The availability of plentiful fruits over a long time spam. This is possible for a small number of people usually at a high cost. Dr. McDougalls diet evolved over the years as a response to watching various cultures eating patterns matched to their health outcomes. His recommendations for fruit are largely based on his observations in his practice.
You are asking a question specifically aimed at a group of people that have achieved excellent results using Dr. McDougalls diet. Probably not the right group to answer your technical question about why not to make fruits the basis of ones diet. I would strongly suggest asking the question in Jeff Novicks forum or emailing Dr. McDougall directly.
My comments about achieving caloric needs comes directly from several members formerly attempting the 80/10/10 program. It was a common complaint.
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While adopting this diet and lifestyle program I have reversed my heart disease, high cholesterol, hypertension, and lost 54 lbs. You can follow my story at http://www.drmcdougall.com/star.html Scroll to James Brown
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Re: 811rv, what do the experts here think? Esp John

Postby ETeSelle » Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:00 am

laney wrote:And what I'm asking is not "why doesn't the mcdougall diet scrap starch and replace with fruit" but why is fruit so restricted.

I think that if you read carefully the info Dr. McDougall has posted here on the website and in his books you will find the answer.
Dr. McDougall wrote:In general fruits should be limited to 3 servings a day. They are tasty, high in simple sugars and easy to over consume. The sugar in fruit is fructose, which causes triglycerides and cholesterol to rise too high in sensitive people. People with these concerns should limit fruits even more.

http://www.drmcdougall.com/free_4c.html

If you want to eat more fruit, go ahead! :-D No one here can stop you, LOL. But it's our job in part to explain this program, and limited fruit is part of this program. Many people other than you are reading it, and they may be interested in following the plan closely.
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Re: 811rv, what do the experts here think? Esp John

Postby ETeSelle » Fri Feb 24, 2012 8:20 am

laney wrote:"Sensitive people" is a very low % of the population with a rare disorders. For the other over 99% of the population, I don't see why this seemingly arbitrary and highly restrictive rule is in place.
[SNIP]
Hence my question.... why this restriction? IE why for everyone on the program, and not just for the 2 out of 100000 people who have chronic organ failure.

Where do you get these 99% and 2 out of 100,000 stats? MANY people find that their triglycerides go up with even MODERATE fruit consumption. Folks here report it all the time. It happened to me (mildly, but enough for me to ramp down the fruit).

If you want to eat a lot of fruit DO IT! No one can stop you. If you want more details about why Dr. McDougall says to restrict it, why not email him? drmcdougall@drmcdougall.com . The rest of us only know what we have told you, and it's good enough for us! :)
Starting: 207 lbs/ BMI 33.4
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Read my Star McDougaller Story and my Testimonial thread

Trust me on this: One day you'll wake up and realize that it no longer feels like "being strict." It just feels GOOD. :)
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Re: 811rv, what do the experts here think? Esp John

Postby ETeSelle » Tue Mar 06, 2012 1:36 pm

What "John" do you mean? Do you mean Dr. McDougall? If so, more than likely he thinks, as most of us responding do, that the info is pretty clearly on the website and that if you don't buy it after looking that info over, you never will. Go ahead and eat how you want--no one is forcing you to eat this way.
Starting: 207 lbs/ BMI 33.4
Current: 123 lbs / BMI 19.9

Read my Star McDougaller Story and my Testimonial thread

Trust me on this: One day you'll wake up and realize that it no longer feels like "being strict." It just feels GOOD. :)
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Re: 811rv, what do the experts here think? Esp John

Postby ETeSelle » Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:22 pm

It's not "arbitrary!" Fruit (1) can raise triglycerides in some people; (2) is easily over-consumed (for those trying to lose weight or to keep it off); and (3) unlike starch, it raises blood sugar in sensitive people.

If these are not concerns of yours, eat more fruit.
Starting: 207 lbs/ BMI 33.4
Current: 123 lbs / BMI 19.9

Read my Star McDougaller Story and my Testimonial thread

Trust me on this: One day you'll wake up and realize that it no longer feels like "being strict." It just feels GOOD. :)
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Re: 811rv, what do the experts here think? Esp John

Postby Katydid » Wed Mar 07, 2012 4:56 am

Laney,
While I seriously doubt that any amount of evidence will convince you, you don't need to wait for Dr. McDougall to get the information you seek. A simple search on Google Scholar or pubmed (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gmov.com/pubmed/) will turn up multiple research studies on the effect of high-fructose diets on blood triglycerides.

Also, remember that Dr. McDougall (not 'John' - that's rude) has a large clinical practice where he treats very obese people with metabolic syndrome, heart disease and diabetes. These people get blood work before, during and after treatment at his clinics so he is in a better position to judge the clinical effects of a high fruit diet on blood triglycerides than any of the raw food gurus (no disrespect to 'Doug').

This diet isn't based on natural hygiene or any other raw food philosophy. It's based on hard clinical data. It's not based on how people 'feel' eating this way, but on how the specific blood markers for various diseases change over time. It's real science. The data is out there - look it up.

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http://www.drmcdougall.com/stars/cathy_stewart.htm
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Re: 811rv, what do the experts here think? Esp John

Postby f1jim » Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:05 am

You didn't provide the links to the studies but I suspect the lowering of trigs you quote are on subjects adding fruit to an otherwise SAD diet. This is a common problem when adding any component on the basis of studies. How close to the diet patterns of McDougallers are the eating pattern of the subjects in the study. You can replace the calories of something less favorable with fruit and see benefits but what if you are already eating a low fat, plant based diet? This is where we see rises in trigs in some people that follows the amount of fruit consumption. Much of this is experience based on what we see here on the forums and I am sure Dr. McDougall bases his recommendations on the basis of what he has seen in his practice over the last few decades. If you don't have a problem with rising trigs and prefer more fruit have at it. Dr. McDougall doesn't see fruit as anything but a component of a healthy, plant based diet. Just that he prefers starch as the basis of the diet as has been the practice for large, successful, cultures over recorded history. Calling the "restriction" crazy seems to be a bit harsh. Calling starch the basis of the diet would be more accurate. You are free to disagree.
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While adopting this diet and lifestyle program I have reversed my heart disease, high cholesterol, hypertension, and lost 54 lbs. You can follow my story at http://www.drmcdougall.com/star.html Scroll to James Brown
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Re: 811rv, what do the experts here think? Esp John

Postby f1jim » Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:33 am

Please do not twist my words to dramatize your clearly one way, pro 100% fruit message.
I did say that adding fruit to an unhealthy SAD diet may lower trigs. That part you got correct. There have been many eating a McDougall diet that saw their trigs stay at a high level till they moderated their fruit consumption. You can choose to accept that reality or not. What their trigs were before starting a McDougall diet? Who knows. All we can do is monitor changes by manipulating the food choices and make corrections if something looks out of sorts.
I am saying to restrict ANYTHING if that item is making your body react poorly either as a reduction in well being or in blood work. You may choose to see that as crazy. We call it common sense.
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While adopting this diet and lifestyle program I have reversed my heart disease, high cholesterol, hypertension, and lost 54 lbs. You can follow my story at http://www.drmcdougall.com/star.html Scroll to James Brown
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Re: 811rv, what do the experts here think? Esp John

Postby ETeSelle » Wed Mar 07, 2012 8:47 am

laney wrote:Maybe I will ask this question over at Jeff's room.

Go for it. :evil:
Starting: 207 lbs/ BMI 33.4
Current: 123 lbs / BMI 19.9

Read my Star McDougaller Story and my Testimonial thread

Trust me on this: One day you'll wake up and realize that it no longer feels like "being strict." It just feels GOOD. :)
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