Nasoya Fat Free mayo

[JeffN]

I didn't say just vegan, I was very specific about no dairy, no meat, *no oil* in my question...

Fair enough about the "vegan" however, the assumption of "no oil" still exists as I had not made or implied such was the case.

I mean how often is that the case,

As I said in the other post recently, in my case, 100% of the time. Otherwise why would they come to me? They come to me because they are trying to follow the program and not reaching their goals. But that is not a bad thing or a statement against the effectiveness of the program.

But is it 100% of the time that the program needs to be tweaked for them? I mean what I'm wondering about is how often just actually following the regular plan isn't enough

First, I am not saying it is "not enough" nor have I ever.

Second, define, "regular plan". This is the same issue in the other thread. What exactly is the "regular plan"?

It is nothing more than a general guide of recommendations, guidelines and principles that have to be applied to each person based on their personal and individual situation.

If someone is not losing weight and they have to adjust the calorie density of the diet down somewhat, I do not see that as the plan not being enough. It is understanding how to adjust it to fit someones personal and individual needs.

All his books (and all other health books) come with the following note...

"The information in this book is general and not to be takes as professional advice for your specific health problems. "

So, why would anyone see it as anything else?

are you saying all the people you see aren't able to find success without being more restrictive?

No. Nor am I applying the adjustment has to be "more restrictive."

Part of the problem is people are seeing the word adjustment, or personalized, as more restrictive or overly restrictive or as the general guidelines as not being "enough".

Again, if someone is not losing weight and they have to adjust the calorie density of the diet down somewhat, I do not see that as "more restrictive" but just a personal adjustment.

Snyders Pretzels are on the approved list for the regular program. Do you think someone could live on just Snyders pretzels, and/or Snyders Pretzels as their main starch with a few servings of fruit and veggies a day? Of course not.

But they are on the approved list and without any guidelines of how much is enough. So, how much IS enough? And, is it the same for everyone?

Of course not.

Also, if you ever go to a 10-Day program, one of the benefits, and one of the reasons people go and spend the money and travel the distance, is that they get to meet with Dr McDougall several times over the week. And, one of the reasons many come to do this, and why he does this, is to help adjust (not restrict) the program to their individual needs.

Anyone who thinks there is a general program and/or set of guidelines that is going to work for all Americans, regardless, is really being a little overly idealistic.

Anyway, the details were not public and I was not at liberty to discuss them. However, i assured you they were following a very nutritionally inadequate diet, regardless of whether or not it was vegan and that was the issue. You will just have to trust me on that one.

It's not about trust, it's just that I know for myself, and I'm thinking many others, one of the obstacles to eating this way is concern over nutritional inadequacy... but along comes Dr.McDougall and he's very clear and very emphatic that that is not something we have to worry about... we can even get all we need just eating potatoes... what we only have to worry about is disease of overnutrition... and that is the big draw of McDougalling, it's just so gosh darn simple and easy. But then you say, not so, we do still need to worry about all those things, so I'm just looking for clarity on that, because it is very confusing.

First, the issue is not me, nor am I the one who is saying that. Remove me from the McDougall program, these boards and my forum, and all the same issues still exist and the same discussions.

Second, I am not saying anything any different than Dr McDougall. Most all of my posts are about how simple and easy this is and how important it is to keep this simple and easy. Nowhere have I ever said, "not so".

Third, Dr McDougall does not recommend anyone, anywhere at anytime to live on just potatoes.

Anyways, I know the media distorts the issues, the only reason I took that particular article seriously at all was because you posted it as a warning to us. Had anyone else posted it I would've immediately thought nothing of it (except as an example of how inaccurate headlines are!).

Remember, as distorted and inaccurate as it is, the majority of Americans get their health education from the media and trust in it. Therefore, in my eyes, that story (just like the other similar stories) was a good example to use to point out how inaccurate the media is, how they distort issues and that any diet, vegan or not, regardless of what the media calls the diet, can be unhealthy.

And that is all it ever was.

In Health
Jeff

[JeffN]

I guess I assumed you were actually answering my question, but that is the only assumption I made.

Anyone who thinks there is a general program and/or set of guidelines that is going to work for all Americans, regardless, is really being a little overly idealistic.

Ok, I must be very idealistic because that is exactly what I thought about the McDougall program. I still feel I am getting mixed messages though, because I continue to hear and read here how this program will always work for everyone as long as they follow the general guidelines... I mean which is it?

Second, I am not saying anything any different than Dr McDougall. Most all of my posts are about how simple and easy this is and how important it is to keep this simple and easy. Nowhere have I ever said, "not so".

I'm very confused because that is what I was getting out of this thread... that you were making the point that it really isn't that simple and there are many situations in which people need to be stricter and more careful about what they are eating, even beyond the 'approved' foods.

It seems you avoided the question that I posed, which addressed this very issue that you have now raised twice in your last post.

Snyders Pretzels are on the approved list for the regular program. Do you think someone could live on just Snyders pretzels, and/or Snyders Pretzels as their main starch with a few servings of fruit and veggies a day? Can Snyders Pretzels, be used as someones main starch?

Also, regardless of whether it is their main starch or not, how many servings a day of Snyders Pretzels would be OK to eat and is that the same for everyone?

Let me add in a few more to make the point and perhaps you can address them..

What if someone is disabled and can't be active, does the same guidelines apply equally?

What about the advice Dr McDougall gives in his newsletter on gaining weight..

http://www.nealhendrickson.com/mcdougal ... weight.htm

... and why would he have even come up with these additional guidelines?

How about if they have celiac disease?

Or gluten sensitivity?

Or allergic to bananas?

What if someone is one of the ones who is extremely salt sensitive?

So, I ask you? Regardless of weight (since we know there is a MWL program) will this program "always work for everyone as long as they follow the general guidelines"? Can everyone just follow the regular program and just eat from the approved list of foods?

In Health
Jeff

[landog]

Maybe all those folks doing so well right now will be headed for trouble in the future eating the McDougall soups, cheerios with sugar, Wendy's potatoes, pastas, and store bought rice milk...???

Wait a minute, the Wendy's potatoes are a whole food. Don't lump them in with those processed foods, please!

Thanks!

Be well,
-dog

[TwinB]

..

[JeffN]

Maybe all those folks doing so well right now will be headed for trouble in the future eating the McDougall soups, cheerios with sugar, Wendy's potatoes, pastas, and store bought rice milk...???

Wait a minute, the Wendy's potatoes are a whole food. Don't lump them in with those processed foods, please!

Thanks!

Be well,
-dog

Amen!!

Good catch!

In Health
Jeff

[JeffN]

Thanks Jeff. I just learned a ton:--))) Had a few more light bulbs flash.

Deb

You are welcome!!

In Health
Jeff

[Melinda]

Just to add my two cents to the original topic - I have tried nasoya mayo, and personally I think it tastes awful! I do have sandwiches every day, made from very healthy oil free bread, and I use mustard on one side and a very thin slice of avocado on the other - tastes great!

[JeffN]

Maybe all those folks doing so well right now will be headed for trouble in the future eating the McDougall soups, cheerios with sugar, Wendy's potatoes, pastas, and store bought rice milk...???

Wait a minute, the Wendy's potatoes are a whole food. Don't lump them in with those processed foods, please!

Thanks!

Be well,
-dog

Sorry, I was not defining them as a processed food but as part of a less than ideal diet

Why would eating a plain baked potato or two, at a meal, along with some steamed broccoli and/or a plain salad, in anyway be "less than ideal?"

I have a whole thread here called Wendy's Mini on how one could get virtually everything they need at Wendy's

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=9321

In Health
Jeff

[SactoBob]

So, I ask you? Regardless of weight (since we know there is a MWL program) will this program "always work for everyone as long as they follow the general guidelines"? Can everyone just follow the regular program and just eat from the approved list of foods?

Well, that was the impression I was under when I first began 'McDougalling'... although I wasn't aware at the time of all the packaged products that were approved, for some reason just from reading his books and watching the dvds I had assumed that a lot of things I find discussed in these forums as 'approved' were not part of the plan (things like cold cereals... and pretzels apparently). Of course there are always exceptions to everything, but in general I thought this was the case.

I have to admit that I was under the same impression as Carroll for the first time that I attempted the McDougall diet. I failed, and now I understand why. But my reaction when I failed was that this was just another diet plan that did not work. I did not appreciate that I could not just walk down the list of approved foods at the market, fill my shopping basket with what I liked, and succeed.

Of course, a little cheating was allowed, so I also indulged myself here and there in addition. My old typical day would start with some dry cereal with sugar and regular (high fat) soy milk, and a bit of soy milk in my coffee. I ate a lot of salad and bread for lunch (a lot of bread) and did not think I used too much oil dressing (now I understand just how many calories are in the oil). I also had a lot of bread for dinner. And of course, some beer or wine was allowed, and maybe a bit of fish for my "cheat" and of course the veggies needed to be stir fried in oil. Restaurants and social occasions were other "allowed cheats/treats." Also, there were so many products that tasted so good that were advertised as "no fat" (sounded good to me then - now I know better). All those healthy vegan desserts were great, and I deserved them for all the great work I thought I was doing on my diet. I loved chips, and tried to choose the ones that were advertised as healthy, with "healthy" oils and "low salt" (LOL). I really read Dr. McDougall's books with a filter of what I WANTED to hear.

In fact, it is really simple. We know what good whole foods [BTW, Carroll, a plain baked potato, whether from the health food store or Wendy's, is a whole plant food] are, and we know that some people can cheat and also eat high calorie density foods. However, those people are usually not the people who come here. The people who come here are wanting a change, and often desperately needing that change. They are not the people who should be eating the maintenance version of what Dr. McDougall's plan.

If somebody comes here needing change, and the change is not happening, it is clear that something in the diet needs modification. I don't think that we should be urging patience to a person with a serious medical problem who wants to keep enjoying the "occasional" treats and cheats that have stalled their progress and are keeping them from success.

I wish I understood way back then what I know now about Dr. McDougall's plan. The plan always works, because the plan includes tweaking for people who are not meeting with success.

And my final point is that this is not just about the health consequences and the numbers which improve, as I have seen. The biggest reason to follow what Jeff is saying is because of how much better you will shortly FEEL. The difference is night and day in my experience.

[JeffN]

Why would eating a plain baked potato or two, at a meal, along with some steamed broccoli and/or a plain salad, in anyway be "less than ideal?"

I have a whole thread here called Wendy's Mini on how one could get virtually everything they need at Wendy's

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=9321

In Health
Jeff

I didn't say eating a plain baked potato or two along with some steamed broccoli would be less than ideal

It is the impression I got from the above post and the way it was worded. Apparently, I was not the only one. However, now that you have added more comments, I can see how you included it as part of the day with all the other "less than ideal" foods and was making a general comment on the "day" and not calling a baked potato, "less than ideal".

I just want the best for everyone... for my family, for my friends, for my fellow McDougallers that come here looking for help...

That is why we are all here and on the same team.

In health
Jeff

[JeffN]

So, I ask you? Regardless of weight (since we know there is a MWL program) will this program "always work for everyone as long as they follow the general guidelines"? Can everyone just follow the regular program and just eat from the approved list of foods?

Well, that was the impression I was under when I first began 'McDougalling'...

I do appreciate your response, but you seem to continue to avoid responding to a few questions that I am asking you and think your own responses would address the question/issue you have asked/raised about whether the general program is adequate for everyone...

These are..

What if someone is disabled and can't be active, does the same guidelines apply equally?

What about the advice Dr McDougall gives in his newsletter on gaining weight..

http://nealhendrickson.com/mcdougall/03 ... weight.htm

... and why would he have even come up with these additional guidelines?

How about if they have celiac disease?

Or gluten sensitivity?

Or are allergic to bananas?

What if someone is one of the ones who is extremely salt sensitive?

although I wasn't aware at the time of all the packaged products that were approved, for some reason just from reading his books and watching the dvds

This "list", in one form or another, has been part of the program from as far back as I can remember.

I had assumed that a lot of things I find discussed in these forums as 'approved' were not part of the plan (things like cold cereals... and pretzels apparently). Of course there are always exceptions to everything, but in general I thought this was the case.

Aha! There goes another one of those "assumptions" getting in the way.

In Health
Jeff

[JeffN]

of course there are exceptions,

Thanks. I agree!

is it really just an issue for some odd person, or is it perhaps that they are just getting a more extreme and obvious reaction to something that really isn't the best health choice for anyone and even someone without that issue might run into it in the future (like someone eating SAD who seems just fine...)

maybe it is important to be more discriminating and more cautionary in our food choices than we might imagine initially just from our available options).

I agree.

In regard to both questions...

Remember, we are now dealing with a situation that never before existed and didn't exist in the very early 80's when the first McDougall books were written. This toxic food environment, in all its present glory, did not really begin to the mid to late 80's and exploded in the mid 90's till today. We now, for the first time ever in the history of humans, have so many options that are cheap and abundantly available, and being heavily and intelligently marketed and advertised in some really seductive ways as health foods but are nothing but junk.

And remember, most of the people who are coming here looking for help are doing so because they are really overweight or obese and/or have other serious health issues, some of them very longstanding and some of them fairly serious.

In addition, 67% of Americans are overweight with over 34% obese. Allergies, sensitivities, and complicating conditions, co-morbidities etc are no longer rare occurrences. I see people all the time who are on literally dozens of medications.

We do need to be more careful.

This is why IMH(P&P), it is better to be stricter at first (ie, MWL) and then loosen up a little after you have reached your goals.

Just my opinion, but also based on my personal and professional experience over the last 25 years of working with people and seeing the changes in the health of America and the food supply.

BTW, when I was Director of Nutrition at the Pritikin Program (1998-2007), I helped modify their program and many of their guidelines and recommendations because of all of these issues. The clients were not the same clients from the 70s and early 80's and the environment they were coming from, and we were releasing them back into, was not the same as it was in the 70s, early 80's. We had to modify our position in order to help these "new" clients be successful in this "new" world.

In Health
Jeff

[JeffN]

Well, I'd be curious about those modifications if you ever care to share sometime!

We do need to be more careful...This is why IMH(P&P), it is better to be stricter at first (ie, MWL) and then loosen up a little after you have reached your goals.

But what if you are starting at your goal?

Then you would not be here asking me for help.

This whole discussion is about my comments that I post here in this forum. All of these comments are directed at those who come here looking for help because they are not well or not where they want to be. And, as I said, many have some fairly serious health and/or weight problems. It is why I make the comments I do.

This is one of the main points I keep making in this thread. The healthy who are at their goals, or happy with what they are doing, do not come here asking me for help.

And, as I have said...

"If someone is successful and the program is working for them however they are defining it, then I only wish them the best and continued success."

They are also not the ones asking me for help.

Also, as I have often said here, most all of the confusion within this forum comes from someone taking a response that was directed specifically at someone else with a specific situation and thinking it applies to everyone, or to themselves, who may not be in the same situation.

In Health
Jeff

[sunnystuf]

Hi Jeff,

I rarely post, but I just wanted to say that i am probably not the only person who comes here who is in excellent health and doesn't need to lose weight.

I just love reading this stuff and hearing what you and others are offering.

I love eating this way because I can eat and eat. In the olden days, I didn't get to eat so much.

Thank-you for all you do,

Stephanie

[brannach]

G'Day Jeff - you add a lot to my experience of McDougalling and aiming for better health. I too have done it my way and failed to make headway (yes -all those little bits of extra and 'just this once won't hurt'). Well it does hurt - in my case regaining 5 kilos and high blood sugar (as well as feeling like @#$^). I love your posts and have read all of this thread. I own the books and the DVD's but sometimes I'm just looking for that little extra to help me understand why certain approaches (as above), truly make a huge difference to my health.

The more I understand the better decisions I can make.

Roseanne
in Australia on Australia Day!!