Am I dying or what?

[dteresa]

Yes, I should be doing resistance exercises but for a while I have been babysitting my grandkids and I am lucky I can get a walk in. So if anything I am doing less exercise. I also was eating four times a day and lately have been trying to space my meals so I eat three times a day. I usually get hungry in the evening and would have soups or salads and maybe a medium potato. Maybe spacing the meals so I eat lunch between one and two and dinner between six and seven and eating plenty of satiating starches keeps me from overeating. It could be that fourth meal was keeping me at the weight I was. If you can over eat on broccoli, brussels sprouts and green beans plus whatever leafy greens. Anyway. Whether I am eating starches or eating vegetables I think I am a very lucky person because it is food I really enjoy. Just about every person I know tells me they just wouldn't enjoy not eating meat and cheese.

I wouldn't even question the weight loss if I had continued being a bit carbphobic like AJ and limiting them to a smallish portion per meal (and counting beans as my starch for some meals). It was just that in my mind, knowing that grains and potatoes are more calorie dense than broccoli and brussels sprouts made me wonder about the weight loss. I fully expected to gain and be writing to AJ that what she was doing isn't working for me. In fact, I did write to jeff but received no answer, wondering how AJ could lose weight by eating more calorie dense food. The fact that she was eating several cups of rice at a time and was losing even more just did not seem to follow the immutable laws of nature and thus was driving me crazy. Especially since I have written plenty of times before that eating more than a small amount of starches causes me to put on two or three pounds of water weight which I would lose in about three days when I cut back on starch. (Especially popcorn which for some reason blows me up like a balloon so I tend to stay away from it.)

If you guys remember Mike Teehan, he spoke about how he ate several pounds of potatoes yet still lost weight. But he was very very heavy to begin with so naturally switching from animal protein and fat to starches would logically produce weight loss. Less calorie density. No mystery there. But I am at a normal weight and decreased non starchy vegetables, not meat and fat.

The only thing left to do is to see if, eating more starches, I will start to gain again and this weight loss really was some kind of temporary loss due to water weight, stomach contents etc. Oops. Twenty minutes is up. Time to go get weighed again.

didi

[GeoffreyLevens]

Raw vegetables should also work with weight loss since they will just mostly pass through and make all of the intestine bacteria very very happy.

Plus SUPER LOW in calories! That's the idea behind bending the midline on the McDougall starch based meal plate in the MWL version, you increase the veg (cooked or raw!) and reduce the higher density starches a little and there you go

[zumacraig]

Initially AJ was eating a ton of veggies, right? Now she's eating more starch? This has been a sticking point with me. If I understand McD correctly, he seems to be the only one who says Starch First then veggies, right? This jibes with the results in this thread of more starch equals better results, no?

I'm just trying to get a handle on all this as I struggle with getting enough veggies. I tend to worry too much about it and end up not eating enough starch then craving etc. Am I right, starch first, then veggies? Maybe I'll start another thread.

Craig

[GeoffreyLevens]

Not exactly. AJ makes a very big point of 2 pounds (POUNDS) of non-starchy veg is top of the menu. Then comes starch... So a lot of ultra low calorie density fill-up first.

[dteresa]

extreme, I am 5 feet 4.75 inches tall. Unless I shrank. I haven't had my height measured lately. But I am getting old so maybe I am really 5 feet 1 and don't know it.

Geoffrey, I know about raw vegetables. Which is why I am questioning why adding more starches and less vegetables has produced weight loss. I don't know. Maybe tomorrow or the next day I will be complaining because I gained weight. If I do at least it won't puzzle me. With higher calorie density food you should be gaining more than with lower calorie density food. (unless the starches are more satiating and I am eating fewer calories at the three meals (instead of four)

Zumacraig, I do not recall hearing or reading that dr. McDougall ever said to eat the starches first. He just said to eat starches and some vegetables. However, Jeff has given talks in which he describes studies in which people ate a salad first then ate fewer calories in the rest of the meal. And who ate soup first and ate even fewer calories in the rest of the meal. So it is a good idea to eat the salad or soup first. Then I guess the next course could be a plate of cooked vegetables and starch.

Except for breakfast when I just have oatmeal, I have been having a very nice helping of soup or salad first and then enough starch (not weighed or measured, just eyeballed) to satisfy me. Today for lunch I had a salad then rice and beans. Tonight since I was cooking big vats of two different kinds of soup, I just had three small bowls of split pea and cauliflower soup (I am guessing about 25 to 30 fluid ounces altogether) followed by a big apple. Too lazy to make a salad or vegetables. I just finished it a little while ago and since it is now 8 o'clock I do not think I will be hungry for anything else the rest of the evening. That makes three meals today including the oatmeal for breakfast.

didi

[dteresa]

It looks like in the video aj eats two pounds of steamed vegetables. One pound in the morning. I do not know if that means she takes two pounds of raw vegetables and steams them or if she measures out two pounds of steamed vegetables. It makes a difference.

In one video Jeff asks, who could eat a pound of broccoli. He says he couldn't. He must be talking about raw broccoli because when I heard him say that I thought, heck, I could eat a pound of broccoli. Frozen broccoli comes in pound bags and I could, and do, easily eat that amount. Now a pound of raw cauliflower at one sitting. Nope. Couldn't do it.

didi

[Lesliec1]

didi, i would like to try this too. Can you tell me what exactly to do? I will add starches like you mention but should I still try to eat a ton of veg, esp green veg? Or no? Also, what about fruit? Limit that as in MWL? Thanks!

[baardmk]

I've been way too sedentary and eating almost exclusively starch the last months. (maybe 95% of the plate). I'm down to my lowest weight ever in my adult life. And previous to starting this plan I was at a low weight(2 years ago). I'm not proud of my eating right now though - it really has way too little vegetables, fruits, salads and greens. I'll add in more of these categories soon.

I've always eaten a lot of bread and cereals, and I've very rarely put away the plate if I was still hungry for a little bit more. There are more pieces to the puzzle than calorie-density.

[Dougalling]

"Or what?" = you are living

[dteresa]

Leslie, I think what I am doing is only eating three meals a day and spacing them so I eat later in the evening so I don't snack. I think the starches are satiating and the feeling of fullness lasts longer than it does eating vegetables and salad and soup although when I eat a big serving size bowl of salad I sure do feel full. Maybe it just doesn't last as long. Other than that I did pretty much what aj does because it is her experiment I copied. I am guessing though that this is just part of my pattern of going a long time doing the same thing and not losing a thing then all of a sudden dropping a couple of pounds. It will probably be another long while before, if ever, I lose any more. I was just surprised it happened at a time when I increased starches and decreased vegies a bit.

didi

[Chile]

It looks like in the video aj eats two pounds of steamed vegetables. One pound in the morning. I do not know if that means she takes two pounds of raw vegetables and steams them or if she measures out two pounds of steamed vegetables. It makes a difference.

In one video Jeff asks, who could eat a pound of broccoli. He says he couldn't. He must be talking about raw broccoli because when I heard him say that I thought, heck, I could eat a pound of broccoli. Frozen broccoli comes in pound bags and I could, and do, easily eat that amount. Now a pound of raw cauliflower at one sitting. Nope. Couldn't do it.

didi

Funny you mentioned this. My lunch yesterday was a 1-pound bag of frozen broccoli plus another 1/2 cup of cooked carrots, and about 2/3 cup cooked whole wheat penne, all dressed with a little of Chef AJ's "Yummy Sauce." Ate it easily. I'm trying to clean out my chest freezer and often have a 1-pound bag of veggies for either a snack or part of a meal. My favorite is Brussels sprouts cooked and then tossed with a mustard-maple syrup glaze. Now that is yummy!

[patty]

Initially AJ was eating a ton of veggies, right? Now she's eating more starch? This has been a sticking point with me. If I understand McD correctly, he seems to be the only one who says Starch First then veggies, right? This jibes with the results in this thread of more starch equals better results, no?

I'm just trying to get a handle on all this as I struggle with getting enough veggies. I tend to worry too much about it and end up not eating enough starch then craving etc. Am I right, starch first, then veggies? Maybe I'll start another thread.

Craig

Someone was questioning Chef AJ's success, this is from Dr. Fuhrman's Ask the doctor forum:

Chef AJ was making and overeating rich deserts, with dried fruit and nuts. A nutritarian only eats when hungry and the use of nuts and seeds comes at the expense of cooked carbohydrate calories. Used in this manner they cannot be the factor causing the weight problem. When more nuts and seeds and less carb calories are consumed in an isocaloric fashion, it leads to more fatty acid oxidation and more weight loss. So in spite of Chef AJ's story being used by the extremely low-fat vegan contingency to support their anti-nut position, the science here as well as overwhelming clinical evidence that nuts and seeds used properly as part of a healthy diet does not cause weight gain. So the fact that she lost weight when she cut them out, showed she was not following the appropriate (my) dietary guidelines. When you remove nuts and seeds you also increase risk of cancer as made clear in the Adventist Health study." Dr. Fuhrman

This was Chef AJ's response on the Eat Salad, Lose Weight:

I sure wish what he said was true, that I could eat nuts and seeds and lose weight, or at least, not gain weight. After going to True North as a patient for the first time in January of 2011 I was diligent for an entire year, eating exactly one ounce of walnuts, weighed out, and a tablespoon of ground flax, and my weight did not budge an ounce. What I have learned from Dr. McDougall is that a calorie is not a calorie, and that any fat you eat is stored as fat and that if you overeat from carbs they are not stored as fat, but invisibly as glycogen in the muscles, or burned as heat.

If I have understood the changes Chef AJ made was she increased her starch, when omitting nuts. I think she had already been off chocolate. I don't think she increased her veggies as I know she practiced ETL. Maybe I am wrong:) I found nuts very addictive and I am still questioning for myself the need to eat 2 lbs of veggies. I asked her about fasting and she said, she is not fasting. I have found new habits are just as hard to give up as old. What I find compelling about Chef AJ's experience is she now understands that a calorie is not a calorie and I feel the need for 2 lbs of low calorie dense veggies is irrelevant.

Aloha, patty

[zumacraig]

I've been way too sedentary and eating almost exclusively starch the last months. (maybe 95% of the plate). I'm down to my lowest weight ever in my adult life. And previous to starting this plan I was at a low weight(2 years ago). I'm not proud of my eating right now though - it really has way too little vegetables, fruits, salads and greens. I'll add in more of these categories soon.

I've always eaten a lot of bread and cereals, and I've very rarely put away the plate if I was still hungry for a little bit more. There are more pieces to the puzzle than calorie-density.

i don't think this is bad at all. that's whole point of mcdougall that i have a hard time getting through my head; eat starch to lose weight. add in veggies. i'm focusing on this to make it a habit and will add in more veg, soup, salad when i hit a plateau.

[colonyofcells]

Sometimes, I do the vegetables and starches in separate meals. Sometimes, I eat pounds and pounds of microwaved vegetables and unable to eat anything else after that so I just eat the starches in the next meal instead. I sometimes find it difficult to eat a variety of food in a single meal so I just make up for it in the next meals. Sometimes, I do 1 meal of starch, 1 meal of legumes and 1 meal of vegetables, rather than doing all 3 types of food in a single meal.

[zumacraig]

Sometimes, I do the vegetables and starches in separate meals. Sometimes, I eat pounds and pounds of microwaved vegetables and unable to eat anything else after that so I just eat the starches in the next meal instead. I sometimes find it difficult to eat a variety of food in a single meal so I just make up for it in the next meals. Sometimes, I do 1 meal of starch, 1 meal of legumes and 1 meal of vegetables, rather than doing all 3 types of food in a single meal.

i have some sort of mental block to eating tons of veggies. i just can't see myself eating a pound of kale or whatever. i literally can't get it down. maybe over time.