Am I dying or what?

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Am I dying or what?

Postby dteresa » Wed Apr 23, 2014 7:25 am

I am not kidding. Last year in June when I visited Phoenix, my brother and I ate a wfpb diet and I got down to between 135 and 137 pounds. He is great support, including ordering salad with me in restaurants. He says I always do best when I am with him because he keeps an eye on me. Not true. I never, never cheat. But at home I am freer to eat more of the good stuff and have less to keep me busy as I do when on vacation. It has been a whole year and my weight has varied on average between about 131 and 133. Not much of a weight loss in one whole year. Couldn't budge it much more. Don't really know if I need to get down to my college weight because I look good and feel good now. Was eating lots more vegies than starches. Probably even more than on the MWL plan. I always thought Dr. McDougall was rather blasé about vegies in the diet by using such terms as --throw in a few vegetables. As opposed to Fuhrman.

So I read about Doug Lisle's challenge to AJ to eat more starches without worrying. And she lost more weight, even though she was already quite thin. So I figured, what the heck. I'll try it and when I gain I can always exercise more, up the salads and green things and lose it again. I would not have let it go beyond about three pounds. Because then I could still fit into all my great new clothes. In less than a week I lost three pounds. I did not even experience what I normally do--increase in water weight from starches, especially popcorn which I haven't had in a long while---don't like to see that scale move even temporarily.

Now in my family if you lose weight without trying (I was not actually trying or restricting calories, just wanted to see what would happen by really upping the starches.) it means you are very sick or dying. I can still eat like a horse and still have a good appetite but I do find that the starches do fill me. So because I am not cutting back (I don't think) and it seems like I am eating more. I am losing weight. Only dying people do that right?

Either that or I am defying the laws of thermodynamics. Because rice and potatoes and oatmeal (I increased my morning oatmeal to one cup dry instead of the 2/3 I normally eat and was previously thinking of reducing the portion to 1/2 cup dry) are more calorie dense than vegetables. If I am not dying, and I haven't discounted this, then the only other thing I can think of is that I was really eating a whole, whole lot of calories via all those vegies and might be eating less with all the starches. I also do not think I am getting all the nutrients I was because I am only eating normal sized portions of vegies, not whole bowls full. And besides fuhrman, both Bill Harris in Hawaii and Esselstyn seem to say, more greens, less grains.

We will see if this is an anomaly and I regain. This is really creeping me out.

didi
PS My post prandial blood sugars are a lot higher eating so many more starches. I am still debating the wisdom of letting them run a lot higher. The only thing that would prompt me to drastically decrease starches.
PPS I also am adding that desiring to lose weight is not vanity. I look great now. And I know that two or three pounds if not more of my present weight is loose skin from having been fat and I will never lose that without surgery. No. I have t2 diabetes and was once diagnosed with a fatty liver and I figure the less fat I have on my body,especially visceral fat, the more insulin sensitive I will be and the better the chance of having good liver function.
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Re: Am I dying or what?

Postby frozenveg » Wed Apr 23, 2014 7:45 am

didi, I doubt that you are dying (any more than we all are, eventually). And I can't explain the loss, but I think it's probably good! I'm a big starch eater--my ratio has always been 1/2 to 2/3 starch-to-vegs--and as long as I don't eat bread and crackers, I have no problem keeping it off, but I never went much lower than 122 (I was there for a year or so and then I "bread and crackered" back up to my 129 right now). But, depending on your height and body composition, you could go a few pounds lighter and then it will stop. Very likely. I think that's what happened to Chef AJ--I met her this summer when she came to Alaska to our Vegan Society, and she seemed thin and quite healthy! (I'll let her speak for herself, tho, on whether she's still losing.)

But keep us posted, of course--we don't want you to vanish!
5'3", 74 YO. Started Jan. 11, 2010
Starting weight: 222.6
Current weight: 148.2.0


Success Story:
https://www.drmcdougall.com/articles/st ... -rockwell/
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Re: Am I dying or what?

Postby JuicerJohn » Wed Apr 23, 2014 8:00 am

This is just a theory, but I know that Dr. McDougall has said that the body has the ability to burn off excess starch without storing it as fat. I suppose that happens by an increase in metabolism.

My guess is that when you increased your starch intake you crossed some boundary which caused your body metabolism to increase and the increase was great enough to account for the excess starches as well as some more so maybe your muscular carb stores are acually at a lower level now than before.
Jesus *said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. John 14:6
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Re: Am I dying or what?

Postby Marla » Wed Apr 23, 2014 8:59 am

Hi Didi,

This is so interesting! I will be riveted to this thread, eagerly awaiting your next update (assuming you are not, in fact, dying). :lol:

I have conducted this same experiment on myself in the past, several times, and it has never worked for me. I am still planning to try upping my starches after I stabilize at my goal weight, to test the theory that excess starch isn't easily converted to fat, but I had given up on the idea of increasing them while trying to lose, as I am sure I need to create a caloric deficit for that to happen. The only explanation that makes sense for your weight loss is that you are so satisfied by the increased starches that you are consuming less food and fewer calories. That's if it is not just a change in fluid balance or the amount of fiber in your digestive tract.

I hope you continue to have success and I look forward to hearing more. :)
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Re: Am I dying or what?

Postby Katydid » Wed Apr 23, 2014 9:15 am

When I first went on the elimination diet a couple of years ago (after my diagnosis of eosinophilic esophagitis) my weight fell like a stone. I was eating tons of rice, sweet potatoes and winter squash, but I couldn't keep my weight up. I really did look like I was undergoing chemo and people at work were starting to whisper. As I adjusted to the diet and began to add more food back in my weight stabilized, and once I began to create my own sauces and burgers and dips with my "safe" foods my weight went back up to normal. What I decided was that it wasn't the starches per se, but all the other things that I was putting on them that made the difference between losing or stabilizing weight. On the elimination diet, there is no hummus or gravy or cocoa or nut milk or jam. It's just all you can eat of whole (non-gluten) starches and (non-nightshade)vegetables and (non-citrus) fruit and salt. Probably the most effective "diet" that Dr. McDougall has ever designed :lol:
Kate
This diet can save your life - it saved mine! Read my story at:
http://www.drmcdougall.com/stars/cathy_stewart.htm
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Re: Am I dying or what?

Postby GeoffreyLevens » Wed Apr 23, 2014 9:46 am

So because I am not cutting back (I don't think) and it seems like I am eating more.

Fascinating but oh please oh pretty please, I would love love love to see the numbers if you actually weigh in grams what you were eating of each food, same w/ current new diet, and put in CRONoMeter or similar and get actual calorie counts! It is quite possible you are netting less calories total. Less likely by far a violation of law of thermodynamics but I am open to new paradigm :D

Curious what old pp blood sugars and new ones are...

Data, we want data!!!! :)
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Re: Am I dying or what?

Postby Marcella » Wed Apr 23, 2014 10:20 am

[quote="dteresa"]
So I read about Doug Lisle's challenge to AJ to eat more starches without worrying. And she lost more weight, even though she was already quite thin. So I figured, what the heck. I'll try it and when I gain I can always exercise more, up the salads and green things and lose it again. I would not have let it go beyond about three pounds. Because then I could still fit into all my great new clothes. In less than a week I lost three pounds. I did not even experience what I normally do--increase in water weight from starches, especially popcorn which I haven't had in a long while---don't like to see that scale move even temporarily.

Didi, good news about being able to up your starches without gaining weight, and actually LOSING a few pounds!

Just to clarify, in Chef AJ's recent article on VegSource "AJ Loses MORE Weight - On Veggies & Starch", she states that she was already consuming starches (such as potatoes) but was afraid to consume GRAINS. Dr. Lisle encouraged her to eat as much grains as she wanted while she was at TRUE North, without worrying. Here's an excerpt from her article:

So I was doing really well and maintaining my weight, but I found that I was still overeating at night. Even though I was overeating on A+ food like fruits and veggies, I didn’t like feeling stuffed and bloated, even though it wasn’t impacting my weight.
I discussed this with Dr. Doug Lisle (the psychologist at True North and The McDougall Program who co-wrote “The Pleasure Trap”), and he said it was because I wasn’t eating enough starch!
I had already proven you could eat potatoes and lose weight but I still had carbophobia and was afraid to eat grains. I had still bought into the nonsense that grains were fattening and used to fatten cattle. Anyway, Dr. Lisle, who was the one who got me to do the “nut experiment”, asked me to do another experiment the next time I would be at True North. I was scheduled to be there for 5 weeks beginning on 12-1-13 and he wanted me to eat grains with abandon. He predicted that what would happen was that either my weight would stay the same or I would gain 1 pound.
Well here is the result of the experiment:
I arrived at True North on Sunday evening December 1, 2013 and immediately started eating grains with abandon. The served oats or polenta every day for breakfast, and all kinds of rice for lunch and dinner. Brown rice, red rice, black rice, wild rice (technically a seed), buckwheat (the only grain I did not care for), and quinoa (also technically a seed).
Like all the slim staff members at True North, I loaded my plate at every meal, sometimes eating 4 cups of rice at a time. Turns out I really love the stuff. I spent my entire life avoiding it and I was fat. Then I spent 5 weeks gorging on it, and do you know what happened?
In just 27 days I lost another 5 pounds!!!

Here's a link to her whole article:

http://www.vegsource.com/news/2014/04/a ... tarch.html

Didi,It would be interesting for you to enter what you eat now into cron-o-meter to get a picture of the amount of calories you are consuming, nutrients, etc. If you can remember what you used to eat, it would be interesting to see a comparison. Perhaps the starches are now filling you up more and so there is less room or desire to indulge in higher calorie dense foods like popcorn and perhaps condiments or plant milks, etc. Very interesting!! Thanks for sharing.

Marcella
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Re: Am I dying or what?

Postby dteresa » Wed Apr 23, 2014 11:18 am

Using the cronometer which I am still having trouble figuring out is too much work. Not to mention weighing and measuring. And most importantly I have no way of knowing the calorie counts of the tons of vegetables I used as my main calorie source. The nice thing about eating wfpb is that you don't have to worry about that stuff. I keep thinking about this. I know doctor mcDougall says who cares why it works. But I am not satisfied unless I know WHY. I remember in school having to know how a formula was derived. I was never comfortable just memorizing it to plug into problems and once I understood WHY, those problems were a breeze and I never had to memorize. Just my personality. WHY???

I think those are right who say I am probably eating fewer calories because the starches are filling me up. It is so easy to stick the plastic rice cooker into the microwave or microwave some potatoes. The other day I had the salad bar at Ruby Tuesdays but also surreptitiously brought along a container of no fat homemade potato salad in my purse. Used their plates and don't think anyone could tell the difference.

I did read exactly what was posted here about AJ's experiment and that was what persuaded me to give it a try.

Alternatively, it is true that when I lose weight I am not a text book weight loser. I have posted here before that I will go for weeks and weeks or months without any loss and then all of a sudden drop three or four more pounds without having changed anything. Or so it seems. So maybe it was just my time to lose some more. I am only an experiment of one and even I do not know what is going on.

I have also been thinking that when I am losing weight my blood sugars do go up. So maybe the higher blood sugars are because of the weight loss. After all, the fat has to go somewhere and so losing it might mean I am actually, for a while, on a high fat diet. So I will give it a while longer and see what happens. And of course, it could be some temporary thing like water weight or intestinal contents or some other thing that makes it seem like I am losing weight for real.

I have been eating this way faithfully for two years and hope it is not just weight loss but health gain that I am experiencing. Otherwise, what's the use? In this time I have seen acquaintances on weight watchers, very low carb, and other diets, lose and gain most of it back again. I do not see this happening to me because I am making no sacrifice, enjoy the food a whole lot, enjoy the ease of preparation and get to eat enough satisfying food to make me want to continue. It just hurts me so much to see very overweight friends and family say they could never give up meat, cheese or any of their other bad habit foods.

I will keep posting. I weigh myself about every twenty minutes so I should have lots of data points.

didi
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Re: Am I dying or what?

Postby eXtremE » Wed Apr 23, 2014 11:27 am

GeoffreyLevens wrote:
So because I am not cutting back (I don't think) and it seems like I am eating more.

Fascinating but oh please oh pretty please, I would love love love to see the numbers if you actually weigh in grams what you were eating of each food, same w/ current new diet, and put in CRONoMeter or similar and get actual calorie counts! It is quite possible you are netting less calories total. Less likely by far a violation of law of thermodynamics but I am open to new paradigm :D

Curious what old pp blood sugars and new ones are...

Data, we want data!!!! :)
Data is good..I love tests and data! :D
On 7/8/2013, I decided to change my diet to a "mostly" WFPB diet. I have always been somewhat lean and muscular due to being a lifelong exerciser. Change in diet due to feeling crummy all the time despite a healthy outward appearance. Image
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Re: Am I dying or what?

Postby eXtremE » Wed Apr 23, 2014 11:33 am

If you are about 131 lbs didi, that seems pretty lightweight to me for a woman. How tall are you?

I am all skin and bones now at 5'10", 139 lbs this morning and have been trying to get back up a little. It is really weird. Some ppl wanna lose a little more and have a hard time losing more and some ppl need to gain and have a hard time doing that.

I did not know what the hell to think when I read the subject line of this thread "Am I dying or what?" until I opened it up and read it. LOL
On 7/8/2013, I decided to change my diet to a "mostly" WFPB diet. I have always been somewhat lean and muscular due to being a lifelong exerciser. Change in diet due to feeling crummy all the time despite a healthy outward appearance. Image
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Re: Am I dying or what?

Postby Starchmonger » Wed Apr 23, 2014 11:49 am

didi,

You aren't dying! everyone in my life thought I had cancer in the last stint I had working on cruise ships. I had found a cafeteria on the ship that served baked potatoes and I'd been eating enormous dinners of baked potatoes, tomatoes, salad, and fresh fruit. I was skin and bones despite eating til I could barely walk.

Your body really doesnt store carbs. Muscles store some glycogen, but it's not like fat, which is a store for months in advance. Glycogen is stored for hours or days in advance.

Eating this diet will cause effortless and substantial weight loss in most people. We see how much humans are supposed to weigh while eating hearty portions on wonderful foods.

Be healthy,
Starchmonger
Low Fat, Whole Foods vegan
Current Diet - Potatoes, fruits, leafy greens. Current weight ~148lbs down from a lifetime high of 260.

Stop counting calories! Just eat the right foods!
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Re: Am I dying or what?

Postby bridgetohealth » Wed Apr 23, 2014 12:36 pm

There are two things that always get me out of a plateau weight-wise: 1) eat more potatoes; 2) up my resistance exercise.

When I'm eating the way I like to and on-plan I eat very close to the same thing every day. Although it is discouraged by many, I try to weigh myself daily as it serves as incentive not to go off-plan (buy oil-laden vegan cookies at Whole Foods, for example), and I don't freak out about a few pounds if I'm on-plan. When I'm going along well but not losing, and I eat more potatoes (huge quantities of them) for a few days, I lose several pounds quickly; then can keep going with slower weight loss back to my normal quantity. There is no scientific basis, and I can't explain the WHY either, but it happens pretty consistently. Because my normal diet is so similar (other than potatoes I eat Just Right soups as my main calorie-dense food), I know I'm not cutting down on something else to make room for the potatoes. It seems to work especially well with baked potatoes, and I thought maybe it was the resistant starch as opposed to how I normally cook potatoes? Either that, or as suggested, my metabolism changes through some mechanism -- I don't know.

I didn't know Chef AJ changed specifically to grains -- interesting. I may try that.

As much as I believe in starches, it's possible that number 2 is what happened with you Didi. Didn't you say in the "aging healthily" thread that you were increasing your resistance exercise to build muscle? This kind of exercise can boost your metabolism for 36 hours or more after you do it.
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Re: Am I dying or what?

Postby colonyofcells » Wed Apr 23, 2014 12:53 pm

With tubers, some of the starch maybe is not digested so they can help with weight loss. Vegetables tend to have a mix of starch and sugars.
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Re: Am I dying or what?

Postby GeoffreyLevens » Wed Apr 23, 2014 12:56 pm

colonyofcells wrote:With tubers, some of the starch maybe is not digested so they can help with weight loss.


http://www.precisionnutrition.com/all-about-resistant-starch
Where is RS found?
RS is found in starchy plant foods such as:
beans/legumes
starchy fruits and vegetables (such as bananas)
whole grains
some types of cooked then cooled foods (such as potatoes and rice)
The longer and hotter a starch is cooked, the less RS it tends to have — except for Type 3 RS.
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Re: Am I dying or what?

Postby colonyofcells » Wed Apr 23, 2014 1:08 pm

Raw vegetables should also work with weight loss since they will just mostly pass through and make all of the intestine bacteria very very happy.
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