Greetings From Dr. Fuhrman

[VeggieSue]

Specifically, in NJ, it is illegal for licensed physicians to sell supplements for a fee.

At least a third of the docs in my own city sell *something*, whether it's vitamins or ointments. Yes, I'm in NJ.

It is also illegal to prescribe supplements without first having performed a history and physical examination on the person for whom the supplement is being prescribed.

But Dr. Fuhrman doesn't prescribe, he suggests. Only people who come to his office and *are* examined by him or his other doctors are given any prescriptions for medication, if needed. He doesn't prescribe any vitamins or food products to anyone on-line. People are free to go anywhere to buy the items he suggests, too. He just offers some of them via his web site for convenience.

There is a petition on the whitehouse.gov website asking that the NJ medical board enforce the laws on the books and stop Dr. Furhman from continuing these illegal activities.

Well, they're gonna have to inspect and stop all the doctors here in Hudson County and Bergen County, too.

For the record, I do not follow Dr. Fuhrman's food plan nor use any of the supplements sold on his web site. I *have* bought some salt-free food products form him, though, and have read his books, watched his PBS specials, and used a few of the recipes that have been labeled "Eat to Live" from various people, including many of the celebrity chefs Dr. McDougall has had in his programs.

[Rule 62]

It seems this forum has turned into a rip and tear apart every nutritionist, doctor or whatever idea doesn't agree with the McDougall plan. Different things work for different people. Some here need to give their head a shake, their eyes are stuck. That's why I don't contribute much here. It seems to be getting worse so I'll move on.

PS: I've been on here for more years than I can count and see this site slowly going sown hill. And the moderator will probably delete this post.

[hazelrah]

It seems this forum has turned into a rip and tear apart every nutritionist, doctor or whatever idea doesn't agree with the McDougall plan. Different things work for different people. Some here need to give their head a shake, their eyes are stuck. That's why I don't contribute much here. It seems to be getting worse so I'll move on.

PS: I've been on here for more years than I can count and see this site slowly going sown hill. And the moderator will probably delete this post.

I think it's going downhill from the many people claiming to be longtime kindred spirits of these forums who, after decades of faithful membership, post here once to berate the forums and members for their intransigence about any dietary plans that contradict the McDougall plan. To me these boards exist for one purpose only; to help people who want to adhere to the principles espoused here adhere to those principles. Any post that contibutes to that goal is appropriate in my view, and any post that does not contribute to that goal is fair game for removal. And any poster with integrity would not be whining about the moderators doing their job.

Just my opinion (which, of course, is the only one that counts).

Mark

[f1jim]

Any member that has been around for a significant length of time is aware the forums are less volatile and there is much less friction now than in the past. It hasn't been too long since there was serious open warfare on the boards. I am not objective but I am cognizant of the tenor of the boards. It appears to me that we have a large group of dedicated McDougallers and they are very committed to the program. They are not ones to suffer other programs that deviate far from this one. That's probably expected given the purpose this website was created and maintained. It was not designed as a advocate and support site for other dietary programs or styles. It does not try to be inclusive in this area. If your interests in diet and nutrition lead you to advocate other programs you are probably not going to find much support here. As moderator I am in full agreement with this thinking.
We don't chase anyone away asking questions or looking for the concepts behind our program. We appreciate the need for people to feel confident in undertaking dietary change. Perhaps this program isn't right for some. Perhaps it is at odds with a philosophical or religious belief. Perhaps the ideas are a bit radical given where the American public is at.
Many here incorporate ideas garnered from other nutritional leaders. I have incorporated some of Dr. Fuhrmans ideas myself, as well as those of Dr. Esselstyn, Ornish, Pickney, Campbell, and more. I also have issues with some of their ideas. Those issues are a regular part of the discussions here on the boards. I'd like to think we can discuss and explain where those ideas may or may not be inline with Dr. McDougalls and do it in a hospitable way. We are all going to differ on where and how that line is drawn. I tend to see the line between discussion and advocacy differently than someone else. I'd like to think I am bringing as much objectivity to these issues as I can. I urge anyone disagreeing with my, or Jeff's handling of them to communicate with us explaining where we might be better at the tasks we face. This has been such a learning process for me. I am terribly appreciative for the understanding all have shown and the patience exhibited by the group. It really is about juggling and balancing and we all try to get it right but we are human. We all have faults, biases, and varying idiosyncrasies. Even this group as a whole has one.
f1jim

[Wild4Stars]

Just my personal opinion, but I think we should focus on our common ground instead of our differences. I personally prefer Dr. McD's starchivore concept over Dr. F's nutritarian ideas. But aren't we more alike than different? While I'm not 100% on board with the Eat To Live camp it's a step in the right direction compared to the Paleo or Atkins community. Just my humble opinion. And the truth is - I came to McDougall through Eat To Live.

[ParsleyPatch]

This thread, thankfully, died on Oct. 10, 2012. Then, unfortunately, someone revived it on Nov. 12, 2013. I wish this sleeping dog had been allowed to lie indefinitely. It's getting boring. But I would like to express my gratitude to f1jim for keeping all the threads in the Lounge civil and sane with his thoughtful, articulate contributions.

[patty]

It is important to remember Jim and other members of this forum see the larger picture of Dr. McDougall's message. Being starch centered equates to the SATIETY of the Giving-Not-Losing principle. When I share what is in my heart to another, not only does it remain in my heart but they have it too. This WOE has a very deep learning curve to become self-sustaining in a culture that has been addicted to the biological metabolic dollar of fat and oil. No longer are we living like Kings and Queens at the expense of our neighbors and planet, from a illusory famine based on fear.

This is from "The Starch Solution":

THE QUEST FOR ANSWERS AND A SINGLE SOLUTION

Governments, businesses, local groups, and individuals are seeking answers to our environmental problems through reducing the use of fossil fuels— coal, oil, and natural gas— and by trying to get industrial waste under control. At the same time, we are waging a war on chronic diseases with strategies to reduce smoking, the use of alcohol and drugs, toxic environmental chemicals, and infectious diseases. But where is the effort to fix the food?

It would not take much for us to solve these individual and global problems in one fell swoop. All it takes is one big U-turn back to where we came from. Back to our roots. Back to what we once knew was healthy and natural: a diet based on starches and other plants, including fruits and vegetables. At the root of both human and environmental health is what we eat. Food is plentiful. We just need to choose the Starch Solution.

As you seek to achieve your personal goals of dropping a few (or even a hundred or more) pounds, bringing your blood pressure and blood sugar under control, weaning yourself from medications for high blood pressure or diabetes, battling cancer or staving off a recurrence of it, relieving your joints that ache from arthritis, easing your depression, increasing your energy, or simply slipping gracefully into your swimsuit this summer, consider your immense contribution to the world around you. As you switch to a starch-based diet, think about the positive impact of what you are doing will have on your children and grandchildren, and on generations yet to come. If you get stuck along your path and find yourself heading back to old eating habits, reflect on how far you have come and what a difference you have already made.

You are now helping billions of people beyond yourself. You are helping all of planet Earth.

Location 1422 Kindle Edition

Aloha, patty

[StarchHEFP]

(Open letter to Dr. Fuhrman)

Dear Dr. Fuhrman,
I hope you are reading the replies; I want to tell you I am a family physician and I commend you for the work you are doing to educate the public about appropriate nutrition for children and adults. Your plan is definitely the most challenging to follow out of all the WFPB experts, however I do respect your recommendations on HND foods. I was brought to this concept of whole-foods plant based through Dr. Barnard and PCRM, and subsequently saw you on "Fat Sick and Nearly Dead", and thereafter tried to make green smoothies every day and tried to incorporate a copious amount of fruits and veggies; it takes a lot of work for this WOE. I find "The Starch Solution" much more economical and easy to follow for most people, but I do appreciate your approach and I especially like the Mnemonic of G-Bombs (Greens, beans, onions, mushrooms, berries, and seeds). Dr Greger has confirmed the nutritional value of those items on his talks, and that helps me in my mind to reinforce this concept. As with all the great minds in the field, including Dr. McDougall, yourself, Dr. Barnard, Dr. Esselstyn, Dr. Ornish, Dr. T. Colin Campbell, Dr. Hans Diehl, and Dr. Greger, all of you and others have contributed greatly to the field, and I appreciate Dr. McDougall's efforts in his video "Diet Wars" to try to find common ground. I recently came across Dr. Tel Oren's talk about "The Truth about Protein" and found the discussion on the protein myth fascinating. I was especially impressed by Dr. McDougall recognizing Nathan Pritikin who pioneered this type of diet (he was an engineer who through personal experience acquired more medical knowledge on nutrition than any doctors have). Let's continue to try to mend the bonds, and stay together, because this is the only way that we can fight the outside influences. I recently took my Family Practice boards, and was shocked at the few questions on nutrition, both from my practice book and on the actual exam, all of which were focused on high protein / low carb diets as being the best - nutrition education for doctors has the potential to do more harm than good by spreading misinformation. I hope that somehow all of you MD's can influence the medical boards to rectify this situation. Among the medical community and establishment, the WFPB diet is as foreign to them as handwashing was in the time of Ignatz Semelweis (he was eventually killed off in an insane asylum at a young age, unfortunately).

Consider authoring a textbook together, all of you, specifically to be donated to all medical students (this could be done as a PDF) - each of you could put in a chapter on your take on the WFPB WOE. Consider authoring a maintenance of certification module together and submit it to the American Board of Pediatrics, Internal Medicine, Ob/Gyn, as well as Family Medicine, and make it an option to recertify for the medical board. I am urging you to get together with your colleagues in the field and educate us physicians more. Together, you docs have so much more power than individually and perhaps you can help to get the whole medical profession on board so that whether a patient is seeing a cardiologist, neurologist, or primary care physician, they will hear about this WOE along with whatever prescription is written.

At first I was taken aback by your membership fees for your forums (Gold, Silver, Platinum, etc. memberships) but I understand the need to generate income; I hope you are putting the income back into the field of WFPB diets through research, advocacy, and professional education. I also appreciate your making available your products through the website; perhaps they can find a broader audience through retail sales at places like Whole Foods Markets because the products do seem to be sound (better to have a person buy your product than buy a shoddy product that has toxic materials in it).

Respectfully,
StarchHEFP
(family physician)

[Katydid]

(Open letter to Dr. Fuhrman)
I hope you are putting the income back into the field of WFPB diets through research, advocacy, and professional education.

FYI see:

http://www.nutritionalresearch.org/research

https://www.entheos.com/academy/courses/Super-Immunity

http://www.nutritionaleducation.com/ins ... fuhrman-md

Kate

[eXtremE]

@ Dr. StarchHEFP, why do you say? >>>

Your plan is definitely the most challenging to follow out of all the WFPB experts

Do you think this solely because of expense?

however I do respect your recommendations on HND foods.

What does HND stand for? I am unfamiliar with this acronym?

[eXtremE]

It is easy to become a millionaire or billionaire selling supplements since most people are too lazy to eat the right foods. Supplements are super refined and are not really healthy. I do need vitamin b12 supplement even though I also don't like vitamin b12 supplements.

Plus, these ppl sell products that don't really translate to good health and longevity. Some of these super concentrated micronutrients are actually dangerous to health IMO. Best to get everything from the foods that you eat if possible.

[StarchHEFP]

@ Dr. StarchHEFP, why do you say? >>>

Your plan is definitely the most challenging to follow out of all the WFPB experts

Do you think this solely because of expense?

however I do respect your recommendations on HND foods.

What does HND stand for? I am unfamiliar with this acronym?

HND stands for high nutrient density - for example he emphasizes fruit and veggies as the base of his pyramid and the starch is higher up and much smaller part than Dr Mcdougall. He is not a fan of rice and potatos. Its hard to follow because of the expense but more importantly acquiring all those fruits and veggies and preparing all of them takes a lot of work. And you may feel hungry more often because veg and fruits are less satisfying than potatoes and rice, bread and pasta.

[Ltldogg]

Holy Necro'd forum thread, Batman!

Seriously, this thread and several others concentrating on Dr. Fuhrman, Dr. Campbell and Dr. Esselstyn, were a dark moment on this great forum, in my eyes. Not because of the topic/situation, but because of the responses by some posters (including the Doctors themselves). Keep things civil, mature and positive and remember that we are hear to support the healthy Starch WOE that Dr. McDougall promotes.

Cheers!

[ParsleyPatch]

Holy Necro'd forum thread, Batman!

Seriously, this thread and several others concentrating on Dr. Fuhrman, Dr. Campbell and Dr. Esselstyn, were a dark moment on this great forum, in my eyes. Not because of the topic/situation, but because of the responses by some posters (including the Doctors themselves). Keep things civil, mature and positive and remember that we are hear to support the healthy Starch WOE that Dr. McDougall promotes.

Cheers!

I second this! And why people talking to Dr. Fuhrman on this forum, anyway? It's Dr. McDougall's forum THAT HE PAYS FOR. Go write a letter to Dr. Fuhrman on HIS website if you want to "talk" to him. This thread is old as the hills, stale as week-old bread, long in the tooth, and flat-out past its expiration date! Please, let it go back into its cave where it belongs!!!