Debunking Michael Greger

[CHEF AJ]

Have you guys seen the latest article?

http://www.vegsource.com/news/2012/08/n ... ought.html

What do y'all think?

[secdroid]

Have you guys seen the latest article?

http://www.vegsource.com/news/2012/08/n ... ought.html

What do y'all think?

So far, Nelson 2, Greger 0. Jeff Nelson seems to be doing an excellent job in analyzing these studies.

Greger's latest "Solving the Mystery of the Missing Calories" doesn't shed much more light -- http://nutritionfacts.org/video/solving-the-mystery-of-the-missing-calories/

Greger discusses a theory re: difficulty of ingestion as a reason for lack of weight gain, with a follow-up on the point tomorrow.

I had been a big fan of Greger, but the series on nuts disappoints, as do Dr. Fuhrman's views on the topic. To contend that nuts may introduce valuable phytonutrients to the diet -- fine. No weight gain for with added nut calories? Want to buy one of my perpetual motion machines?

[Mark Simon]

Hey secdroid. This article from vegsource is being discussed on another thread here at

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=31434

This is my comment from that other thread:

Great article. You do realize that this article is in direct response to Michael Greger's Friday video on nuts, see:

http://nutritionfacts.org/video/nuts-an ... -evidence/

Greger raises those exact two reviews Vegsource is talking about in his video "proving" nuts don't cause weight gain.

Vegsource has "fact checked" Greger, and exposed he is sorely mistaken. Obviously Greger must not have read very carefully these studies before using them. He has a lot of egg on his face right now.

The only remaining question is whether Greger is also a dishonest source. Will he remove that video, now that he's been shown to have been duped? Will he join with Vegsource in exposing what is a bad nut study? I mean he has presented this study to "prove" nuts don't cause weight, and now we see those were 100% weight-controlled studies!

Anyone could "prove" their products don't cause weight, by looking at studies where researchers manipulated calories and deliberately prevented weight gain with those products.

I do think Greger was just sloppy and wasn't trying to intentionally deceive, and I expect he will remove it. Otherwise he is intellectually dishonest, which I doubt.

There is an interesting facebook comment at the end of the article. Jeff Nelson answers someone's question and says this:

Even some MDs touting the science as saying nuts as "not causing weight gain" have personal weight problems they are dealing with -- I know this for a fact.

I wonder which MD he might be referring to...

[Acura]

I don't believe just because you are consuming 1-2 oz of nuts and seeds you are going to be heavier. I know there are many Fuhurmanites who have 21-23 BMI. Their overall calorie intake is 1800-2000 calories. The way they do is, by focusing on greens, beans etc etc. It's misleading when someone says, adding nut calories won't make you gain weight. I don't believe they say that. It is replacing nut calories with grains; what matters most is what is your total calorie intake.

[CHEF AJ]

I don't think anyone is saying that people who consume 1-2 ounces of nuts a day I'll be heavier, especially if they are normal weight, the question is does eating nuts Tru,y facilitate weight loss in and of themselves, or is it the decrease of calories from other sources? Are nuts truly that magical of a food? I know so mant people who are allergic to both nuts and seeds or can't eat them due to other medical conditions. Are they doomed?

[Mark Simon]

Chimichanga said:

It's misleading when someone says, adding nut calories won't make you gain weight. I don't believe they say that.

Actually Michael Greger MD has been saying that repeatedly. If you looked at the link I posted a moment ago, you will see that just this past Friday Dr. Greger put up a video with this title:

Ninety percent of the published studies on the matter suggest that nut consumption does not lead to weight gain.

So he is in fact saying adding nut calories won't make you gain weight, and it's wrong, he is using a study that doesn't say what he thinks it says, which is wrong, and he's doing a disservice, since people watching his videos tend to be unsophisticated (based on the comments) and not very knowledgeable about nutrition. Someone watching his video is left thinking, "Hey, I can eat nuts because they don't lead to weight gain!"

Dr. Fuhrman at least is telling people to substitute nuts for other foods, not to simply add them on top of your diet. But Dr. Greger makes no such distinction, and gives false advice, which is dangerous in the long run.

[Acura]

Dr. Fuhrman at least is telling people to substitute nuts for other foods, not to simply add them on top of your diet. But Dr. Greger makes no such distinction, and gives false advice, which is dangerous in the long run.

Mark,

From the above it seems you agree with the way Fuhrman is touting but If I'm not mistaken you had issues with his way too. So I'm not sure what difference it would have made if Dr Greger said the same thing.

We can nitpick on anything that someone says. When people speak they may not elaborate on everything, every time. When they say X is true, they may not say watch out for A, B and C or A,B and C is not true.

Ninety percent of the published studies on the matter suggest that nut consumption does not lead to weight gain.

The way I read above is different than what you read. He didn't say adding nut calories doesn't lead to weight gain. "Add, additional are the qualifiers!

[Adrienne]

Dr Fuhrman has actually said that nuts promote weight loss because "more fatty acids lead to more fatty acid oxidation." He said this at the last ASW when explaining the success of one of his patients. However, he also mentioned that this person cut back on calories/refined foods and IMO this sounds like the real reason for the weight loss, not the "fatty acid oxidation."

As for Dr Greger, last week I commented on another one of his recent videos on nuts and phytosterols:

http://nutritionfacts.org/video/optimal ... erol-dose/

In it he says, "In terms of whole food sources...seeds provide the most especially sesame then nuts especially pistachio then legumes like peanuts."

However what he fails to mention is that the study he is referencing only examines the phytosterol content of nuts and seeds and very few other plant food sources. Fruits and vegetables are not listed.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16302759

And on top of that the amounts are listed in mg/100g therefore to get all those phytosterols from nuts and seeds you need to eat A LOT of them and with that comes a lot of calories and fat.

I can't imagine that all of this did not cross Dr Greger's mind.

[Mark Simon]

Chimichanga wrote:

We can nitpick on anything that someone says. When people speak they may not elaborate on everything, every time. When they say X is true, they may not say watch out for A, B and C or A,B and C is not true.

Quote:
Ninety percent of the published studies on the matter suggest that nut consumption does not lead to weight gain.

The way I read above is different than what you read. He didn't say adding nut calories doesn't lead to weight gain. "Add, additional are the qualifiers!

You lost me. You're saying that "nut consumption doesn't lead to weight gain" means something different than eating nuts won't cause you to gain weight?

It was a big point Greger wanted to make about nuts and weight. That was the whole point of his video.

As for qualifiers you say or whatever, whatever... Sounds like semantic games.

Greger presented a review of 22 studies and claimed that nearly all of them showed eating nuts didn't cause weight gain. Vegsource pointed out that he read the studies completely wrong, because most of them were studies where researchers reduced the nut-eaters calories during the study to offset and reverse the weight gain caused by adding nuts.

I am working on a piece about Dr. Fuhrman which will include his position on nuts, and he may have fatty acid/weight loss theories or whatever, but the bottom line is his diet differs from McDougall because he advises calorie restriction, invokes the natural hygiene theory of "true hunger" and so forth, whereas McDougall's diet is eat when you want, as much as you want to satiation.

But at least Fuhrman is not saying "eat nuts, studies show they don't make you gain weight." That is only Greger.

[Madhava Das]

According to conclusions that can be drawn from calorie restriction studies, nutrients and healthiest foods should be determined by looking at nutrients per calorie not per gram or per serving. Most of us should know this.

Nuts are on the low end of nutrients per calorie compared to other plant foods.

Several MD's and at least one PhD have suggested through discovery, that keeping our total cholesterol below 150 mg/dL via diet (not via statins) makes us more or less cardiovascular disease proof.

So it's simple: if you can keep your total cholesterol below 150 mg/dL including by including nuts in your diet - great. If you can't (I can't) then don't eat nuts.

"Nutrient density generally follows the plant's reproductive life cycle."
- from Eat Your Way To Health: Healing, Kindness And The Plant Life Cycle

[GeoffreyLevens]

Could this all be a mistaken quibble over the wrong issue which might be-- is the USDA reported calories per amount of nuts/seeds (and any and all other foods for that matter) equal to the calories the body can utilize from that same amount of that food? How close to calories utilized by the body is the reported amount in the data base? And do some foods vary in accessible calories vs. reported calories by a greater amount than others?

[Madhava Das]

Hi Geoffrey,

Good question. I also wonder if accessible calories and accessible nutrients are related to each other in a food? I would think they might be?

We'll have to wait for more science on that one. In the mean time I'll simply keep my total cholesterol below 150 mg/dL by the plant-based whole food diet that does that for me.

[JeffN]

Could this all be a mistaken quibble over the wrong issue which might be-- is the USDA reported calories per amount of nuts/seeds (and any and all other foods for that matter) equal to the calories the body can utilize from that same amount of that food? How close to calories utilized by the body is the reported amount in the data base? And do some foods vary in accessible calories vs. reported calories by a greater amount than others?

We know this to be true and it is addressed in both the article by VegSource, the comments by Mark Simon and in my video on Nuts and Health. It is also true for many foods and not just nuts but it seems like it may be more true for nuts than some other foods. That is why nuts, when added to a diet, do cause weight gain, but less than predicted.

Also, a cholesterol of 150 does not guarantee anyone to be heart attack proof. I also address this in my forum.

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=21177&p=206936

In Health
Jeff

[Madhava Das]

Jeff,

Thank you for your accessible reply.

Also, you are correct about heart attacks et cetera - of course there are no guarantees.

Like you said, "...and the more risk factors we meet, the better are "odds" are of being disease free, but it is no guarantee."

If in relation to Doctor Castelli 2 people below 150 had unexplained heart attacks then maybe the number should be 140. The point is there is probably a blood fat level of various blood fats where heart attacks MORE-OR-LESS stop.

My lowly and humble, but I think informed decision, is to go with the total cholesterol and LDL levels I have - 127 mg/dL and 69 mg/dL respectively - and feel safe and confident that I will not die from heart attack or stroke, et cetera.

That said you have one of the best understandings of healthy eating that I know of.

[Acura]

Question for you guys, specifically for Mark

Let's say my calorie requirement to maintain BMI of 23 is 2000 calories. If I consumed 1-2 oz of nuts and seeds but maintained the overall calorie intake of 2000 calories, Will I gain weight or maintain weight?

Now leave aside, who eats 1-2 oz of nuts anyway. I know nuts can be very addictive and one must be mindful of them. In similar vein, to some people even flesh can be very addictive, yet they do 100% vegetarian diet.

So how does mindful nut consumption automatically equals weight gain is what I don't understand.

If I'm not mistaken in Dr Gregor's U-tube video, he talks about just 2 handful of nuts that would be 3-4 oz per week offered cardio vascular benefits.