Still nuts

[ParsleyPatch]

Attacks on Dr. McDougall, veiled or otherwise, ESPECIALLY by other doctors, is simply not acceptable on the discussion boards that Dr. McDougall provides *free of charge* to the general public on the website he pays for, especially in light of the proven stellar results his Starch Solution brings to the thousands of people smart enough to listen to him.

[veggylvr]

My health stats are stellar, my weight is ideal (not from good genes, trust me!) while eating several ounces of nuts a day and of course starch, too, and I believe he has as much integrity as any of the other fine doctors doing this important nutrition work.

I don't see how anyone can read Dr. Campbell's response and make that conclusion. This isn't really a "two sides to every story" situation. Campbell's name and reputation were blatantly misused.

Integrity, or lack thereof, doesn't have anything to do with whether someone's diet advice also works. Those are separate issues. However, there is a tendency to diefy these diet leaders, and their followers become so defensive that they won't look at facts or hear any criticism.

I've seen this on the low-carb side as well with people like Gary Taubes, who it was proven misquoted researchers and misrepresented research for a NY Times article he wrote back in app. 2003 (and which rewarded him with his first book deal). But you can't say anything about that because Gary Taubes is considered almost a god to a lot of low-carbers. They lost weight following his dietary advice so he must be a good person too.

One thing doesn't follow the other. Nobody doubts Furhman's diet works. It's a healthy, plant-based diet (almost identical to McDougall's except for this nut business and a few relatively minor variations). What we doubt is his integrity, given Dr. Campbell's assertions, and also how we have seen him subtly malign Dr. McDougall, and apparently encourage that viewpoint on his site (even though that was not the case in reverse).

If he really wanted to get along with these other doctors and foster a united front in the plant-based community, he'd stick up for Dr. McDougall - state outright that Dr. McD's advice is not harmful or causing poor nutrition or heart disease - and also apologize to Dr. Campbell for using his name and reputation without permission.

Instead, we get only excuses. He even distances himself from his own study, as if he isn't responsible for the mistakes in it, although he continued to quote the same incorrect information and exaggerated weight loss results.

I agree with Dr. Campbell. We can do better. We need to uphold higher standards, even among those whose dietary views are similar. Particularly so because dishonesty discovered among any one of these public advocates may discredit the honest work of others.

[ParsleyPatch]

Very eloquent Veggylvr..... thank you for this. You are saying what I'm thinking, expressing it so very well.

[RichardK]

Let see.

Colin T Campbell is a distinguished professor emeritius from Ivy League institution with over 350 academic articles in his track record.

Joel Fuhrman is a supplement merchant associated with scrupulous research paper(s) together with undisclosed financial interests. In addition to these facts, Fuhrman has recently teamed with obese low-carb doctors who are all about spraying their LDL particle-size nonsense that no one in the biomedical research community takes seriously, apart from the token one or two lipid researchers paid by the Dairy Counsil, Pork board and/or HealthDiagnosticLaboratoryInc (1). Moreover, Fuhrman has been caught up with posting blatant half-truths at best, nonsense at worst (2):

"Worldwide prevalence of diabetes in adults is about 6%, and Asian countries have somewhat higher rates (9% in China and Korea, and 11% in Japan).2,3 This is interesting to consider. In spite of considerably more overweight and obesity in the USA and our dangerous diet, there is considerably more diabetes in China, Korea and Japan. This is mostly because of white rice".

http://www.diseaseproof.com/archives/di ... -risk.html

None of these points raised in isolation makes Fuhrman a suspect (mistakes can happen to everyone) but when you start to look at the big picture, I wouldn't be so sure about this anymore.

Sources:

1) Clinical utility of inflammatory markers and advanced lipoprotein testing: Advice from an expert panel of lipid specialists (2011)

“All lipoprotein particles in the LDL fraction are atherogenic, independent of size”

http://www.lipid.org/uploads/300/Expert ... 0Paper.pdf

2) Increased incidence of non-insulin dependent diabetes mellitus among Japanese schoolchildren correlates with an increased intake of animal protein and fat
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9492119

[Adrienne]

Thank you RichardK for posting about Dr F joining forces with Davis, Cordain and other low-carb "health experts." I went on the Track Your Plaque site and it's very surprising (to me anyway) that he would want to be a part of that and associate himself with those people.

[RichardK]

Thank you RichardK for posting about Dr F joining forces with Davis, Cordain and other low-carb "health experts." I went on the Track Your Plaque site and it's very surprising (to me anyway) that he would want to be a part of that and associate himself with those people.

I am sure Dr Fuhrman has an excellent and eloquent explanation for all of these issues. However, it's just that it's starting to get a bit too much. At some point it turns to a display of naivety to believe his explanations. After all, Fuhrman has not even made a public correction about his flawed study nor has he publicly apologized that he had exaggarated the data to his audience (which should be in order despite he had allegedly nothing to do with flaws as he maintains).

[patty]

Thank you RichardK for posting about Dr F joining forces with Davis, Cordain and other low-carb "health experts." I went on the Track Your Plaque site and it's very surprising (to me anyway) that he would want to be a part of that and associate himself with those people.

I am sure Dr Fuhrman has an excellent and eloquent explanation for all of these issues. However, it's just that it's starting to get a bit too much. At some point it turns to a display of naivety to believe his explanations. After all, Fuhrman has not even made a public correction about his flawed study nor has he publicly apologized that he had exaggarated the data to his audience (which should be in order despite he had allegedly nothing to do with flaws as he maintains).

It is like the perpetrator never thinks he is doing anything wrong. In ETL Dr. Fuhrman shares the protein myth is harder to give up then religion. And in EFH he shares some unconscious beliefs have to be changed. He just transfers the fat/oil from the protein myth to nuts and seeds vs. allowing the unconscious to become conscious through starches. The key of calorie density is unconsciously we eat the same amount of weight of food daily.

In practicing HALT: don't get too Hungry, too angry, too lonely and too tired, satiety/starches is the important fractal component to the feedback loop. In dealing with life on life's terms, the skill is letting others win, because by letting them win, you are winning all the time. Bacteria has already figured it out it is easier to feed your enemies then fight them. Dr. McDougall had a stroke very early in life which put his priorities in place. Dr. Fuhrman has to go deeper. No one gets thrown off the addiction bus.

We are all learning we collapse worlds, when those worlds are from service it is worth while.

Aloha, patty

[kalegirl]

This is my second attempt at trying to write a post here on these boards. I am assuming any posts that don't agree with what everyone here has stated are censored and removed. I will see how long this post is allowed as it wasn't allowed for more than a few hours yesterday. How shameful!
I have always respected Dr. Mc Dougall and other vegan doctors however I am disheartened to see that Dr. Fuhrman has been vilified on Dr. McDougall’s boards, such disrespect is very inappropriate and demeans all of the negative commenters here.
When Dr. Campbell makes Dr. Fuhrman the scapegoat it only makes Dr. Campbell look bad, not Dr. Fuhrman. That study was done about 10 years ago and certainly if Dr. Campbell placed his name on it with the inexperienced researcher (Dr. Fuhrman 10 years ago) it was Dr. Campbell’s responsibility to check the validly of all figures, otherwise he should have never signed on. So when a mistake was uncovered, instead of Dr. Campbell admitting his error, he blames it on Dr. Fuhrman and pulls his name off the study. Wow! Now, years later he is trying to vilify Dr. Fuhrman and smear his name for making claims about the findings that were possibly incorrect, but not of Fuhrman’s doing. I also think Dr. Esselstyn should have confirmed with Dr. Fuhrman that he really made those statements before posting about it. I heard Dr. Fuhrman talk about seeds and nuts,at VegSource and his concerns about eliminating them from one’s diet and I found the information presented in the context of scientific inquiry and caution. I am glad I heard it. Dr. Fuhrman choses to err on the side of caution, and present an alternative viewpoint, he then becomes an enemy here. And this continues in the context of attacking his character and bashing his dietary advice. I think these attacks should stop and I believe Dr. Fuhrman deserves an apology.

[veggylvr]

This is my second attempt at trying to write a post here on these boards. I am assuming any posts that don't agree with what everyone here has stated are censored and removed. I will see how long this post is allowed as it wasn't allowed for more than a few hours yesterday. How shameful!
I have always respected Dr. Mc Dougall and other vegan doctors however I am disheartened to see that Dr. Fuhrman has been vilified on Dr. McDougall’s boards, such disrespect is very inappropriate and demeans all of the negative commenters here.
When Dr. Campbell makes Dr. Fuhrman the scapegoat it only makes Dr. Campbell look bad, not Dr. Fuhrman. That study was done about 10 years ago and certainly if Dr. Campbell placed his name on it with the inexperienced researcher (Dr. Fuhrman 10 years ago) it was Dr. Campbell’s responsibility to check the validly of all figures, otherwise he should have never signed on. So when a mistake was uncovered, instead of Dr. Campbell admitting his error, he blames it on Dr. Fuhrman and pulls his name off the study. Wow! Now, years later he is trying to vilify Dr. Fuhrman and smear his name for making claims about the findings that were

possibly incorrect, but not of Fuhrman’s doing. I also think Dr. Esselstyn should have confirmed with Dr. Fuhrman that he really made those statements before posting about it. I heard Dr. Fuhrman talk about seeds and nuts,at VegSource and his concerns about eliminating them from one’s diet and I found the information presented in the context of scientific inquiry and caution. I am glad I heard it. Dr. Fuhrman choses to err on the side of caution, and present an alternative viewpoint, he then becomes an enemy here. And this continues in the context of attacking his character and bashing his dietary advice. I think these attacks should stop and I believe Dr. Fuhrman deserves an apology.

I don't think posts are removed here unless they are extremely inflammatory, or else it was a mistake. There are often disagreements here, and several posters have expressed support for Fuhrman on this thread.

You should also understand that Dr. McDougall has long been attacked on Dr. Furhman's boards, but that wasn't the case here, and Dr. McDougall has always extended invitations to Dr. Fuhrman despite his subtle attacks on "white rice" and "white potato," which are clearly designed to discredit Dr. McDougall's starch-based program.

Still, these were mostly ignored by our side, except for a few comments, and those were usually met by pleas to support all the plant based doctors and keep a united front. Most here gave Dr. Furhman the benefit of the doubt, assuming his intent was good, even when he misquoted or apparently misunderstood the cinical research.

However, this is the first time we've heard directly from Dr. Campbell. It's completely understandable that he remained quiet for years. First, he was doing Dr. Furhman a small favor and trusted him to act in good faith. Secondly, he is an extremely busy researcher and simply had no reason to concern himself with that study, which, as he said in his response, wasn't initially published. It was rejected by the top publications and was only later published by a less esteemed source. And, finally, he was respectfully giving Dr. Furhman time to correct these "mistakes" before speaking out publicly. The fact this didn't happen has revealed a lot about Dr. Furhman's character and left Dr. Campbell no choice.

Blaming Dr. Campbell and even Dr. Esselstyn for Dr. Fuhrman's distortion of facts is quite unfair. Please realize that this isn't just one study or one event. Dr. Furhman has engaged in repeated exaggerations and misrepresentations of clinical research. That's simply not how it's supposed to be presented.

[f1jim]

kalegirl your very first post (maybe second?) is a message exclaiming how Dr. Fuhrman has been badly villified and mistreated on these pages. I am not sure of your background, diet experience, or anything else about you since you just joined. You will notice that since this post is still remaining up whoever has it out for you has clearly either given up or gone to bed.
For your edification all the players in this drama have responded with their recollection of the events and many people on both sides have expressed their viewpoints. It seems as though there is little more we can do short of removing the entire thread and shutting off all discussion. I trust you have defended Dr. McDougall in the same vociferous way on Dr. Fuhrmans board in those heated discussions. I'll just thank you for that now since you have only recently joined us. Perhaps you believe you are being maligned much as Dr. Fuhrman was? I would guess if we were trying to discredit him we would have removed his post as well. It's possible Dr. Fuhrmans post slipped by the evil censor much like your post here. Also for your information if we didn't like your message we could always just delete your account but perhaps we forgot to do that too. Thank goodness for incompetence, no?
f1jim

[kalegirl]

You are assuming I am not being truthful that my first post was yesterday, very interesting. I joined yesterday after reading this thread and immediately posted a reply. When I woke up to see the thread, I noticed my post was deleted. That is a fact. I know of several people whose posts have been deleted by these discussion boards. Moderators on message boards can change any data they want to when moderating. I simply wanted to share my view point. I thank you for allowing my post to remain today. I trust it will remain.

[ParsleyPatch]

It seems as though there is little more we can do short of removing the entire thread and shutting off all discussion.

I sincerely hope this does not happen. It would be a big mistake. This thread, and all the "nut wars" threads are some of the most interesting and thought provoking discussions I've ever read on this website, and I read a LOT of them. It's getting us all to think even more about the effects of food, research studies, doctors, their qualifications, what they say, how they say it. etc., isn't it

[ParsleyPatch]

You are assuming I am not being truthful that my first post was yesterday, very interesting. I joined yesterday after reading this thread and immediately posted a reply. When I woke up to see the thread, I noticed my post was deleted. That is a fact. I know of several people whose posts have been deleted by these discussion boards. Moderators on message boards can change any data they want to when moderating. I simply wanted to share my view point. I thank you for allowing my post to remain today. I trust it will remain.

kalegirl, it's very possible, even probable, that it was "operator error," meaning, you inadvertently didn't hit the right button to submit, or did a preview and thought it was submitted and then left the page, especially being a first-time user. I've done that in the past myself several times as it's an easy mistake to make.

[Lois]

I saw kalegirls' first post.
Lois

[GeoffreyLevens]

I have found it incredibly easy to click on "Preview" when I want to hit "Submit", they are adjacent. If, in a hurry, "multitasking" whatever, I only just glance, the page looks much as if my post were "up". But NOOOOOooooo. So if I just click through to something else or back to the forums, it just vanishes as if I never wrote it. Embarrassing to admit I have done this many more times than once!

About this thread-I am finding it one of the most interesting and thought provoking things I have come across in "the world of diet and nutrition" for quite awhile. It is quite difficult/uncomfortable at times but I think very beneficial for me to be reading and pondering. So my vote it, so long as it remains mostly civil, let it run. If it really degenerates into a string of personal attacks, then pull the plug.

p.s. just apparently hit "Submit" yet again!!! Fortunately noticed it almost closed the window though and it would have been gone.