ASW Weekend Update

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Re: ASW Weekend Update

Postby Jack19 » Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:53 pm

Anyway, wasn't there supposed to be a debate between McDougall and Fuhrman? Apologies if it has already been described and commented on, but did they get to .... "duke it out" again, as they were forced to in front of so many people at the Health Expo a few years ago?!
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Re: ASW Weekend Update

Postby f1jim » Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:02 pm

There was a debate, moderated by John Mackey. He gave each of them questions and each got time to reply. Given the situation and the time limits I found it striking how close their ideas were. The more they discussed the more they agreed with each other. I honestly felt like most of the buzz tended to be how much both of their recommendations tended to agree. The only bit of strong disagreement I saw was over the idea of selling supplements. Dr. McDougall made it clear he didn't agree with that. Dr. Fuhrman didn't try to argue why it was important. I think both men knew they were on the same team before this all came about.
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Re: ASW Weekend Update

Postby LauraA » Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:09 pm

I thought that the debate was wonderful, and that the two agreed on so much. Both were also very respectful of each other. Take care, LauraA
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Re: ASW Weekend Update

Postby Adrienne » Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:53 pm

One final comment on the issue:

The debate between Dr M and Dr F was designed to be a debate between the diets/opinions of Dr M and Dr F and that included the portion of the debate that was opened up to the audience. Dr F took Scott's question - which was comparing the ease of the diets while traveling - and a) turned it around on Scott and made it personal and b) did so in a manner that I felt was inappropriate. Judging from the "oooohs" I can hear from the audience, most in the crowd agree with me!

I won't argue that sometimes bluntness is warranted but this was not the time/place for it, IMO.

As for Dr F stating that many or most of the audience is overweight I think that is a fair thing to say. He was just commenting on his observations which may or may not be accurate, although my parents were there a few years ago and made a similar observation.

On another note I really did enjoy the Dr F lectures. It was reassuring to hear my WBC number was right where it belongs. And I appreciated the reverse psychology technique he uses (or used to use anyway) to get his son to eat his greens!!!
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Re: ASW Weekend Update

Postby BarbG » Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:13 pm

I've also never noticed feeling hunger in my throat!

I thought Dr. Fuhrman was interesting, and also funny. I loved the debate! It was respectful, with a lot of laughs!!! I've been thinking about the area of difference between Dr. F and Dr. M. While they both advocate vegan diets, Dr. M's is starch-based with the addition of fruit & vegetables, and Dr. F's is greens-based with the addition of beans (1/2 cup daily), fruit (3 daily), mushrooms / onions (one or the other daily), nuts and seeds. The vegan part is the same, but from there it seems there's a good bit of divergence. Dr. M's recommendations are broad, encompassing all plant foods, while Dr. F's are very specific (micronutrients and phytochemicals). I found Dr. F's angle interesting, and appreciated hearing it.
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Re: ASW Weekend Update

Postby Jack19 » Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:30 pm

BarbG wrote:I've been thinking about the area of difference between Dr. F and Dr. M. While they both advocate vegan diets, Dr. M's is starch-based with the addition of fruit & vegetables, and Dr. F's is greens-based with the addition of beans (1/2 cup daily), fruit (3 daily), mushrooms / onions (one or the other daily), nuts and seeds. The vegan part is the same, but from there it seems there's a good bit of divergence. Dr. M's recommendations are broad, encompassing all plant foods, while Dr. F's are very specific (micronutrients and phytochemicals). I found Dr. F's angle interesting, and appreciated hearing it.


Greens based with 1/2 cup of beans?! Does it not bother you that if Average Joe, overweight and sick on the SMD, was to stumble across the idea that a plant based diet would bring about weight loss AND actually eliminate all of his ailments AND be so much kinder to the world's resources, that he would suffer needless hunger while on Fuhrman's plan and that it would therefore only be a matter of time before he went back to his normal meat and dairy eating ways? I've lost weight by eating as much oatmeal, potatoes, barley, brown rice as I can manage, the only condition I set myself is that I match these vast quantities of starch with equal quantities of vegetables almost every step of the way. I am still losing even though my original target weight was passed an entire fifteen/sixteen pounds ago. To me, Fuhrman's regime requires far too much stoicism than is necessary.
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Re: ASW Weekend Update

Postby Gramma Jackie » Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:44 pm

Jack19 wrote:
BarbG wrote:I've been thinking about the area of difference between Dr. F and Dr. M. While they both advocate vegan diets, Dr. M's is starch-based with the addition of fruit & vegetables, and Dr. F's is greens-based with the addition of beans (1/2 cup daily), fruit (3 daily), mushrooms / onions (one or the other daily), nuts and seeds. The vegan part is the same, but from there it seems there's a good bit of divergence. Dr. M's recommendations are broad, encompassing all plant foods, while Dr. F's are very specific (micronutrients and phytochemicals). I found Dr. F's angle interesting, and appreciated hearing it.


Greens based with 1/2 cup of beans?! Does it not bother you that if Average Joe, overweight and sick on the SMD, was to stumble across the idea that a plant based diet would bring about weight loss AND actually eliminate all of his ailments AND be so much kinder to the world's resources, that he would suffer needless hunger while on Fuhrman's plan and that it would therefore only be a matter of time before he went back to his normal meat and dairy eating ways? I've lost weight by eating as much oatmeal, potatoes, barley, brown rice as I can manage, the only condition I set myself is that I match these vast quantities of starch with equal quantities of vegetables almost every step of the way. I am still losing even though my original target weight was passed an entire fifteen/sixteen pounds ago. To me, Fuhrman's regime requires far too much stoicism than is necessary.


I've read all Dr. Fuhrman's books and he seems to have gone from lenient to super strict or maybe broad-minded to narrow minded about what we should eat. In his first Eat to Live book he even said it was OK to eat fish once in awhile and now he doesn't even want people to eat a lot of starchy vegetables. Kind of the opposite of how Ornish changed from vegan back to allowing non-fat dairy and even fish and chicken.
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Re: ASW Weekend Update

Postby LauraA » Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:29 pm

I will say this, I've never seen Dr F before, and he does look very healthy and fit! Take care, LauraA
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Re: ASW Weekend Update

Postby janluvs2heel » Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:52 pm

LauraA wrote:I will say this, I've never seen Dr F before, and he does look very healthy and fit! Take care, LauraA


Has he ever been overweight? I mean looking at those youtube videos of him when he was ice skating, I dont know how old he was but he certainly did not look overweight in those.

I have only seen him in videos but I did think the one from his Christmas Challenge, he looked like he had dark circles around his eyes. Maybe that is the way he is, I dont know or maybe he was just very tired. But it gave him a less than healthy look to me, but other than that, I thought both he & his wife looked great.
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Re: ASW Weekend Update

Postby BarbG » Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:56 pm

He said he's weighed the same since high school, 148 lbs. I think. Hasn't gone up or down a couple pounds.
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Re: ASW Weekend Update

Postby Adrienne » Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:32 pm

I thought Dr Fuhrman looked great!
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Re: ASW Weekend Update

Postby Ron 43 » Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:56 pm

f1jim wrote:Well, the first night is in the books and first and formost I want to acknowledge the forum members I have run into already. I got the pleasure of meeting our own Frozenveg and her husband, here all the way from Palmer, Alaska. Cloudy is vibrant and fun and she looks even better than the pics we have seen here on the boards. Also here is Vanilla Orchid and her hubby from my hometown of Pacifica. We also ran into LyndaK from Petaluma. There are several Star McDougallers here and we will get some reunion time with them.
Dr. McDougall kicked the event off with a recap of the last newslettera since the September ASW. The buzz was pretty thick when Paula Deen came up. We are all waiting to see if she takes him up on his offer to come to one of the 10 day programs.
Dr. Welch was an excellent speaker. Entertaining and humorous even when discussing a not so humorous topic. Overdiagnosis and overtreatment are big news now in the medical world and his message is very timely. He brings life to what is essentially an actuarial subject. We will hear more from him tomorrow.
I hope those watching at home are enjoying the feeds. Feel free to post your feedback here as you watch.
More tomorrow.
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OK. What's ASW?
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Re: ASW Weekend Update

Postby BarbG » Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:02 pm

Advanced Study Weekend
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Re: ASW Weekend Update

Postby Debbie » Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:00 pm

I just watched it and I thought it was hilarious!!! I absolutely loved loved loved watching Dr. McDougalls eyes dart as he was thinking, seemed so quick.

Here's what got me:
Dr. M says he doesnt battle people if they want to eat white rice. If its a difference of them eating his diet with white rice or continuing on the SAD he says eat the white rice. Dr F disagreed with that.

Then Dr F said that if eating a little bit of meat meant more people ate his way then that was better than eating the SAD. Dr M agreed with that, sort of. More in a way of saying we dont know how much meat is safe, but there has never been a fully vegan society of long lived healthy people, so we dont know. Dr M was more on behaviours, no ones gonna have a chicken sit in the fridge and only eat a couple of ounces a week kind of thing. They are probably going to eat it very quickly.

They are both the same except one is with rice and the other with meat. ^shrug^ The point is to get more people eating a plant based diet. Or as Dr. McDougall said he wants to win the war not the little battles.
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Re: ASW Weekend Update

Postby MmmCarbs » Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:55 am

Jack19 wrote:
BarbG wrote:I've been thinking about the area of difference between Dr. F and Dr. M. While they both advocate vegan diets, Dr. M's is starch-based with the addition of fruit & vegetables, and Dr. F's is greens-based with the addition of beans (1/2 cup daily), fruit (3 daily), mushrooms / onions (one or the other daily), nuts and seeds. The vegan part is the same, but from there it seems there's a good bit of divergence. Dr. M's recommendations are broad, encompassing all plant foods, while Dr. F's are very specific (micronutrients and phytochemicals). I found Dr. F's angle interesting, and appreciated hearing it.


Greens based with 1/2 cup of beans?!


I don't understand why McD and Dr F's plans are seen as similar if this is what Dr F recommends. The greens, onions and mushrooms have negligible calories. So it's really just a half cup of beans and three fruits. That's under 500 calories. The rest of a person'a daily intake must come from the nuts and seeds. So it would be a very high fat diet.
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