Dr Greger and Dr McDougall

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Dr Greger and Dr McDougall

Postby HealthFreak » Wed Jun 18, 2008 12:44 pm

I posted a similar question on the Health and Nutrition section of this forum. Dr Greger and Dr McDougall seem to be colleauges so I'm wondering how Dr Greger can site significant nutrition studies that show no reduction in mortality, increased dementia and increased hip fracture rates for people on vegan diets, with no explanation from Dr McDougall. I'm referring to this talk:

http://www.drgreger.org/talks/#nutrition

Many people on this forum have heard it and their explanation is that the people in the study probably ate a bad vegan diet. It also seems like people can't find the studies that Dr Greger refers to, even though he calls them the biggest and most comprehensive studies ever done.

This is not a criticism I'm just confused by such condradictory statements.

I think the work of Dr McDougall is among the most important things happening on this planet to make the world a better place. People like myself rely on the information because my doctor, friends and the majority of Americans are oblivious to this life saving information.
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Re: Dr Greger and Dr McDougall

Postby JeffN » Wed Jun 18, 2008 12:52 pm

HealthFreak wrote:I posted a similar question on the Health and Nutrition section of this forum. Dr Greger and Dr McDougall seem to be colleauges so I'm wondering how Dr Greger can site significant nutrition studies that show no reduction in mortality, increased dementia and increased hip fracture rates for people on vegan diets, with no explanation from Dr McDougall. I'm referring to this talk:

http://www.drgreger.org/talks/#nutrition

Many people on this forum have heard it and their explanation is that the people in the study probably ate a bad vegan diet.


I would not say they ate a "bad" vegan diet but I would say that most vegans eat a very unhealthy diet. Usually it is high in fat, sat fat, hydrogenated fat, salt, sugar, refined processed carbs/grains, refined processed sugars/sweeteners, low in fiber, high in omega 6s, a poor ratio of omega 6 and 3s and on top of it all, it is drenched with oil. Sometimes it is an improvement over the typical American diet, sometimes it is not.

Vegan is a philosophy, not a set of guidelines for optimal health. Vegan does not equal healthy. Vegan equals no animal products.

When someone tells me they are a "vegan" it only tells me what they do not eat, not what they do eat. What you do eat may be more important that what you do not eat, as we know you do not have to be vegan 100% to have excellent health.

When you understand this, and when you see what most vegans eat, then there is no contradiction, as it makes sense.

Here is a newsletter I wrote reviewing the vegan data

http://www.jeffnovick.com/content/view/447/349/

In Health
Jeff

PS Hopefully data like this will be a wake-up call to many vegans/vegetarians. The numbers one reason (by far) that is cited on why people choose to become a vegan and/or vegetarian is for health reasons, yet they then go and follow an unhealthy vegan and/or vegetarian diet. Some of the problem is because of false assumptions that have proliferated through the vegan/vegetarian community about the health aspects of it, without clear and concise guidelines on how to optimize the diet. To much time has been spent on finding "substitutes" for old foods and habits and not enough on defining what an optimal diet really is and encouraging its consumption.

If you have become (or are) a vegan and/or vegetarian, that is not the "final" step to dietary excellence but what may and can be the "first" step in optimizing your diet and lifestyle.
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Postby HealthFreak » Wed Jun 18, 2008 6:15 pm

Thanks for your response. I've been eating a 95-99% plant based diet for about a year now. Your newsletter answered a lot of my questions.
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Postby Jaggu » Thu Jun 19, 2008 3:54 pm

I'm further confused by reading your above article. you said, a vegetarian diet is not a panacea, there is really not much change in the mortality and to quote you, you said, "Among the lifestyle choices investigated, a vegetarian diet was estimated to confer an extra 1.5 to 2 years of life". To sum it up, you seem to be saying that vegetarian diet may confer an extra 1.5 to 2 yrs of life. In grand scheme of things the effort, prim and properness that is required to not consume any oil, animal products, fat etc does that outweight the dividend of 1.5 to 2 yrs of extra life?

I thought the benefits of vegetarian diet were much bigger over standard western diet. Someone who is doing SAD and regular excercise, not smoking etc could easily make up for the lost ground...I thought vegetarian diet , less than 10% calories from fat, no dairy, no oil etc had much more rewards.

I may have misunderstood the article, drawn erronous inference and hope that you will correct me.
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Postby JeffN » Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:04 pm

Jaggu wrote:I'm further confused by reading your above article.


I believe my above post clarfies the issue. If you are confused, you will have to clarify your confusion.

I recommend a healthy diet, which someone can follow & be a vegan/vegetarian but being a vegan/ vegetarian is not 100% required nor have I ever inferred or said otherwise.

Most vegan/vegetarians follow unhealthy diets & so to not see a benefit is not a surprise.

In Health,
Jeff
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Postby HealthFreak » Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:43 pm

Do you agree with Dr Greger's assertion that the problems he addresses can be corrected by consuming a proper ratio of Omega 6 to Omega 3 and consuming an adeqate amount of B-12?
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Postby JeffN » Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:01 pm

HealthFreak wrote:Do you agree with Dr Greger's assertion that the problems he addresses can be corrected by consuming a proper ratio of Omega 6 to Omega 3 and consuming an adeqate amount of B-12?


I agree that consuming a low calorie dense, high satiety, high nutrient dense diet based on unrefined, unprocessed foods and ensuring adequate nutrient intake is important regardless of whether you consume animal products or not.

Unfortunately most vegans/vegetarians don't.

If you read through many of the threads in this forum, you will see that these issues are well discussed & addressed. If you follow the guidelines recommended by Dr McD & myself, those issues are covered.

In Health
Jeff
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Postby xetaprime » Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:16 pm

Most vegan/vegetarians follow unhealthy diets & so to not see a benefit is not a surprise.

Do you think it best to say 'most' vs 'many'. I understand what you're saying, but I wonder how you would know most are unhealthy.

Sincerely,
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Postby Melinda » Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:41 pm

I would wager that most vegans don't follow a Mcdougal type of diet. :-)
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Postby HealthFreak » Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:20 pm

What is your recommendation for B-12?
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Postby JeffN » Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:39 am

HealthFreak wrote:What is your recommendation for B-12?


I beleive you will find the answer in the following thread

http://www.drmcdougall.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5844

In Health
Jeff Novick, MS, RD
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Postby xetaprime » Fri Jun 20, 2008 6:39 am

Good Morning,

I'd like to clarify what I meant and I mean no disrespect. It's just that in this world of ours, it's very easy to tilt the balance from inclusive to exclusionary. I believe when you say most of a people- vegetarian, vegan, white, black, southern, northern etc, you're making a statement that carries with it an exclusionary implication. And I think by using the word many you're not. Saying many people are a certain way is much more positive.

Here's a page that gives examples of what I mean.

http://www.winstonbrill.com/bril001/htm ... _body.html

Dr. Eades as we know recently posted an article on AGEs. In his comments he made implications that vegetarians were generally unhealthy and over weight. That article does not sit well with me, at all, but I do appreciate that he used the word many vs most when making his comments.

I guess I become protective of the most you refer to and I don't believe most vegetarians and vegans eat unhealthy diets. I believe many do :-D

With respect and Best wishes,
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Postby HealthFreak » Fri Jun 20, 2008 7:04 am

Thanks for the B-12 information. I'm taking this brand which is also vegan, NOW Methyl B-12 1,000 mcg - 100 Lozenges
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Postby starchcurious » Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:56 am

I'm not trying to fuel any fires here, but I am actually a little peeved with the first vegan I met because of her unhealthy diet. We were in high school, and she was trying to convince me to go vegan. (I was already vegetarian.) However, she ate things like Luna bars, Sunspire "m&m's", and Newman O's all day, and insisted she was fine diet wise. Well I met her two years later, and she had put on a lot of weight, and she also looked really pale. At that point I swore off ever trying to go vegan.

I met another vegan around that time who drank nothing but Dr. Peppers all day, and from how skinny he was I'm guessing he didn't eat much else either. Strike two for veganism, I thought.

Then, I met another vegan a while later who actually ate a healthy diet, and she cycled, swam, and in general looked so very healthy. When I decided to go vegan again I actually was thinking, well if -she- could do so well so could I.

I know this is all anecdotal and has nothing to do with factoring into whether or not "most" or "a lot" of veg*ns eat an unhealthy diet, I just wish that more of the vegan ambassadors I had met had been good examples, rather than people who eventually drove me back to the "free range" meat section and eventually up 40 pounds.
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Postby JeffN » Fri Jun 20, 2008 12:15 pm

xetaprime wrote:I'd like to clarify what I meant and I mean no disrespect.


None taken.

My comment is based on my 35 years of being around the "veg" movement both personally and professionally and remains.

Sorry if anyone found my comments offensive and if you are one of the ones who doesn't fit in the "most," than the comment is not directed at you.

However, if you do disagree with me, which is fine, then how do "you" explain the lack of benefit seen in the l/t vegan/vegetarian studies? The lack of benefit can not simply be explained by the B12 & Omega 6 issues.

In Health,
Jeff
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