Always hungry; sleepy after eating. Why?

[Rotoceratops]

I recently ate starch-based for about six weeks: mostly whole grains, dried beans, leafy greens, steamed vegetables, potatoes, and fruit. I found myself hungry nearly all the time. Even if I'd eaten enough to have a visibly distended belly, so that eating more would be physically uncomfortable, I'd still feel hungry. About half an hour after a meal, I'd usually feel overcome with sleepiness. Many times, I dozed off for two or three hours. Periods when I wasn't hungry didn't last long. I seemed to desperately need to refuel several times a day.

Why does that happen? Advice is nice, but I'm hoping for some insight into the causes.

Lots of details and observations are below. Feel free to skip them.

----

I'm male, 52 years old, 6'1" tall, and weigh 172 lbs. I took an interest in Dr. McDougall's approach mainly in hopes of curing difficulty concentrating ("brain fog") that I've had for the past eight years or so. Generally improving health, preventing heart disease, etc. as I age are good, too, of course. I tended to be hungry all the time before the six-week experiment; it just got more intense while eating mainly starch.

Over the six weeks, my overall health seemed to improve. Some acne and eczema on my forehead diminished visibly. Even my hair and fingernails seemed to grow faster. When I wasn't sleepy, I had more energy. My concentration seemed to improve, and my eyesight, which varies from day to day, seemed to improve.

The first two or three weeks, I had a lot of gas and constipation. I reduced the proportion of lentils and dal, and that helped. By the fourth or fifth week, I was able to add more lentils and dal without causing myself gas or constipation. The first four weeks or so, I often noticed many undigested grains in my poop. Then that seemed to stop, too.

I prepared most meals in a rice cooker: a grain, a dried legume, and some leafy greens in the pot, and a vegetable in the steamer. This was wonderfully convenient, and very inexpensive. For the grain, I mostly cycled among oatmeal (usually steel-cut), brown rice, and quinoa. For greens, mostly spinach, turnip greens, and collard greens, with some seaweed added to most meals: wakame, dulse, kombu, or kelp.

When I started, I still had some yogurt, eggs, and salmon in the refrigerator. I ate those the first couple weeks. After that, to improve satiety, I sometimes experimented with adding small amounts of sesame oil or butter. That did improve satiety enormously, but only at first. Later, they didn't seem to make any difference, so I dropped them. On about five occasions, I gave in to the hunger and pigged out on halva (with chocolate), trail mix (mostly nuts with a little chocolate), or chocolate-covered pretzels. Toward the end, I got a chocolate-chunk muffin at Starbucks every couple days. That seemed to give me some energy, probably aided by the coffee.

My satiety seemed to improve toward the end of the six weeks, too. But then it suddenly got worse. During the last few days of the six weeks, I was feeling desperately hungry, too low-energy to concentrate. My eyesight seemed to return to its pre-diet level. Even though I was hungry, I had no appetite: no food in particular appealed to me.

Before the diet, I fasted one day a week, most weeks. Specifically, I went one day without food, but allowed water, coffee, and diluted apple cider vinegar. This has been the most helpful thing for brain fog. The day after the fast, I could usually concentrate; that would decline gradually during the week, until I was miserable the day before the fast, and then the fast would boost me back up. During the six weeks of the diet, I found fasting much more difficult. Before the diet, I had moderate hunger pangs on the evening of the fast, but they were overwhelming while eating mostly starch.

My weight started at 172 lbs. Six weeks later, it was 172 lbs. It fluctuated between 169 and 178. I logged everything I ate on cronometer.com. My calorie intake was a little over 2,000 per day, as was cronometer's estimate of my calorie expenditure. I didn't exercise much, beyond walking about a mile to and from work each day. On non-fasting days, my calorie intake ranged from 1,100 to 4,000, driven mostly by appetite and the inconvenience of having to go home to my rice cooker to eat.

----

So, what is going on? A few conjectures:

1. A problem with intestinal absorption? The undigested grains suggest that, but my stable weight and calorie balance suggest otherwise.

2. Insulin resistance? Insulin seems like a complicated topic. Lots of dietary propagandists preach that insulin makes you store carbohydrates as fat, but I've also read that insulin's main job (among many) is to inhibit conversion of stored fat to glucose. My varying difficulties focusing my eyes (which usually correlate with difficulty focusing my attention) suggest hyperglycemia. I've read that hyperglycemia causes, or coincides with, undue hunger, but I don't understand why.

3. A food sensitivity? Maybe the reason for the improvements was only that I stopped eating something that was causing bad reactions.

4. A micronutrient deficiency? Maybe the reason for the improvements is simply that I got some micronutrient that I was missing; once that was fixed, some other problem became the most important, and maybe the diet didn't address that.

Any ideas? How could I tell?

[roundcoconut]

I wonder if it wouldn’t be a good idea to hone in on your hunger levels, and try to sort it out that way.

You can’t be stuffed and hungry at the same time — that’s just weird. So y’kinda gotta sort out WHERE on a scale of 1 (so malnourished that you are falling over and lightheaded and about to pass out) to 10 (Thanksgiving stuffed, so full that you can’t walk properly, want to lie down and sleep off your food coma).

The number really shouldn’t jump around — if you are at an 8, then I really wouldn’t trust yourself if you are getting signals five minutes later that you ARE DESPERATELY hungry, and at a 4.

If you try starting a meal at about a 7, and finishing at around a 9 (that might be too high, but it sounds like you would prefer to feel VERY full, rather than just sorta ful) — see how that works for you.

You can always scale it back later.

My sense of the matter is that people sometimes need reassurance that they are taking in “enough” nourishment and not underfeeding themselves in some kind of dangerous way. So, it can also be helpful to see what is happening on the scale, and to use that as evidence when part of your is panicking and wanting to eat another bowl of food on a distended belly.

If you are needing to eat more nourishing foods (more caloric foods) in order to feel satiated but not uncomfortable in your belly (too much volume in your belly) then do that.

I doubt whether you will get very far if you don’t experiment with possible solutions but go on a search for the answers and the reasons for your problems. You just need reasonable solutions for how to eat healthfully, not explanations for what you were doing wrong before.

[PJK]

Are you getting enough sleep at night? If not, those long daytime naps could be your body's way of compensating.

I ask because there is nothing about a starch-based diet that should induce a multihour nap.

"Enough sleep" varies for different people. Some people need only 6 hr/night, others 9. You may need to experiment with different go-to-bed and wakeup times. Plenty of good books out there on adjusting your sleep.

[Willijan]

You can be stuffed and hungry at the same time if you are eating very low calorie foods with lots of fiber. It has happened to me. That is why Dr. McDougall recommends a starch-based diet, and specifically recommends against a diet based mostly on low calorie vegetables.

[Rotoceratops]

You can’t be stuffed and hungry at the same time — that’s just weird.

Oh yes you can. I was when I first started this way of eating so I know exactly what the OP is talking about.

… 2. Through trial and error I figured out that as a vegan, the more times I eat, the hungrier I get ... and more often. When I tried eating one meal a day (which cured my IBS), I also noticed that after 3 days of doing one meal a day, I was no longer hungry all the time. So now I can eat one starch-based meal a day and feel as satiated as I did when I ate meat.

Thanks: number of meals per day isn't a variable I had thought of experimenting with. One meal a day would certainly be more convenient, but I may try four or more, since the larger the meal, the sleepier it seems to make me.

The hunger that I've been experiencing is indeed weird, in two ways: I'll feel hunger while stuffed, and I'll feel hunger without appetite. That is, sometimes even though I've got very strong hunger pangs, I have little or no desire to eat (e.g. while stuffed). At times like that, if I contemplate any food in particular, I don't have an appetite for it. I'm still wondering what causes this.

You can be stuffed and hungry at the same time if you are eating very low calorie foods with lots of fiber. It has happened to me. That is why Dr. McDougall recommends a starch-based diet, and specifically recommends against a diet based mostly on low calorie vegetables.

Looking back at my food diary, I see that for a typical breakfast, I was eating 1 cup (dry) of steel-cut oats, 1/4 cup (dry) of lentils or chana dal, and some turnip greens and seaweed, a total of about 750 calories. I'd usually still be hungry (with appetite), and so I'd eat fruit: a mango, several bananas, or some watermelon, totaling about 250 calories. I was definitely putting away huge amounts of starch, some days going over 3,000 calories, and about 50 g of fiber each day—and usually still relentlessly hungry.

Could that be due to poor absorption—lots of calories eaten but not digested? Overall, though, my weight was perfectly stable, and my average daily caloric intake was about what cronometer estimated I was burning (a little over 2,000 a day), so it sounds like I am actually burning all the calories that I'm eating.

Are you getting enough sleep at night? If not, those long daytime naps could be your body's way of compensating.

Sleep might indeed be a cause here. There is a vicious circle: a big breakfast with a lot of starch usually puts me to sleep for a couple hours—and that makes it harder to sleep at night. I'd constantly fight to stay awake all morning. Sometimes I'd succeed and sometimes not. Overall, I was getting a lot of sleep: 8 to 10 hours a day, but on some days broken up into three or four segments.

The sleepiness and hunger also occur while not eating heavily starch-based, just not as intensely. A breakfast of bacon and eggs makes me a little sleepy and is more satiating—even though it totals only 350 calories. But eating that way, I'm still hungry all the time, just not as hungry.

I've come across a few factoids that say that sleep deprivation causes insulin resistance. Indeed I've had crazy sleep schedules in previous years, including working a lot of all-nighters. Could that be the cause of all this insatiable hunger and postprandial sleepiness?

[jamietwo]

Maybe a particular food is making you sleepy? For example, you could try substituting buckwheat groats for your oat groats for a while and see if that helps. When I don't get enough sleep at night, the key for me is not to sit down ... or else I WILL fall asleep!

[Rotoceratops]

Maybe a particular food is making you sleepy? For example, you could try substituting buckwheat groats for your oat groats for a while and see if that helps.

This sounds plausible. It appears so far that starches are the most likely culprit. I'm not sure what to do about that. I've never tried buckwheat groats, though, and I'm always up to try something new, so I'll give them a shot.

Beyond alternatives to try, do you know of any explanation for why one or another food would make me sleepy?

When I don't get enough sleep at night, the key for me is not to sit down ... or else I WILL fall asleep!

I'd been using walking as a way to keep from falling asleep. It does work, but with this disadvantage: sometimes it's too much of a bother, so I don't do it—and end up falling asleep. Standing could be the perfect compromise. I'll try this, too. Thanks!

[Rotoceratops]

A new observation:

After stopping the starch-based diet for a couple weeks, and some reduction in hunger without appetite, yesterday I had steel-cut oats for breakfast/lunch and quinoa + chana dal + turnip greens for dinner, all accompanied by carrots, celery, and/or Brussels sprouts. After about a bowl and a half of the quinoa, I didn't want to eat any more. But I was hungrier than before I ate!

For the next couple hours, I was intensely hungry but without wanting to eat anything. Plenty of yummy quinoa & carrots still in the bowl, but I didn't want to touch it. I listened more closely to my appetite, and finally it seemed to say "ice cream". When I refused to do that, it came up with "beef". These came with a "gut feeling" that they'd address the hunger. So finally I went to the grocery store and bought some of each.

Half a pound of ground beef and one cup of ice cream later, the hunger was greatly reduced. I wasn't completely sated, but that was a huge improvement.

So, it appears that the starch is amplifying the hunger while not satisfying my appetite. What causes this?

For now, I'm going to proceed on the assumption that my appetite is reflecting the real, present nutritional needs of my body. I'd prefer to hear a more informed explanation, though.

[Idgie]

Our appetites can be trained. Our bodies aren't always used to the physical sensation of a fullness that's not heavy. In my experience, meat and milk make me almost drunk -- kind of sleepy and satisfied and happy, but heavy. The fullness I feel from low-fat plant foods is lighter, and feels less soporific.

I have the same experience with the mental aspects of it. For the longest time, I thought eating this way was making me anxious. Then I realized what I was seeing as anxiety was just a bunch of energy that eating this way created in me. I am grateful for it now, but it took some getting used to!

[Lyndzie]

It sounds like you are confusing “hunger” and “cravings.” Hunger will be satisfied by food. Cravings will only be satisfied by something very specific, like ice cream. You have no nutritional need for ice cream or beef, any more than cookies, Taco Bell or bacon. You might want to watch some of Doug Lisle’s lectures on youtube, and read The Pleasure Trap.

Working through cravings isn’t fun, but neither is giving up smoking. All of us here have food that isn’t good for us that calls our name. But, the first step is recognizing the difference between being hungry and craving CRAP, then you can figure out how best to address it.

A new observation:

After stopping the starch-based diet for a couple weeks, and some reduction in hunger without appetite, yesterday I had steel-cut oats for breakfast/lunch and quinoa + chana dal + turnip greens for dinner, all accompanied by carrots, celery, and/or Brussels sprouts. After about a bowl and a half of the quinoa, I didn't want to eat any more. But I was hungrier than before I ate!

For the next couple hours, I was intensely hungry but without wanting to eat anything. Plenty of yummy quinoa & carrots still in the bowl, but I didn't want to touch it. I listened more closely to my appetite, and finally it seemed to say "ice cream". When I refused to do that, it came up with "beef". These came with a "gut feeling" that they'd address the hunger. So finally I went to the grocery store and bought some of each.

Half a pound of ground beef and one cup of ice cream later, the hunger was greatly reduced. I wasn't completely sated, but that was a huge improvement.

So, it appears that the starch is amplifying the hunger while not satisfying my appetite. What causes this?

For now, I'm going to proceed on the assumption that my appetite is reflecting the real, present nutritional needs of my body. I'd prefer to hear a more informed explanation, though.

[Rotoceratops]

It sounds like you are confusing “hunger” and “cravings.” Hunger will be satisfied by food. Cravings will only be satisfied by something very specific, like ice cream. You have no nutritional need for ice cream or beef, any more than cookies, Taco Bell or bacon. You might want to watch some of Doug Lisle’s lectures on youtube, and read The Pleasure Trap.

Thanks, Lyndzie! This sounds like it's onto something. I'll check out Doug Lisle's lectures next.

[wildgoose]

It sounds like you are confusing “hunger” and “cravings.” Hunger will be satisfied by food. Cravings will only be satisfied by something very specific, like ice cream.

Half a pound of ground beef and one cup of ice cream later, the hunger was greatly reduced. I wasn't completely sated, but that was a huge improvement.

My experience is similar. If I "fall off the wagon" (i.e. eat sugar and fat for a few days -- not meat, but all sorts of vegetarian CRAP food), then try to get back on track, I find I'm in for a rough week. I can stuff myself with starches, veggies, and fruits, and I'm still "starved."

Lyndzie is right. It's not hunger, it's cravings. Sugar and fat. That's always what it is with me. No matter how much healthy food I eat, I never feel "full" till I've had something with fat and/or something sweet.

That's the bad news. We can land right in the middle of the Pleasure Trap with very little effort. It's what our bodies were designed to do -- seek out the richest, most calorically dense food available. It's what kept us alive in the Stone Age, but it works against us in modern times when food is artificially Calorie Rich And Processed.

The good news is that if you stay the McDougall course for a while (for me it's about a week, but it varies with different people), it gets better. The cravings diminish. Eventually they all but go away. But you have to stay totally away from what you're craving. Moderation doesn't work. "Just a little" of the bad food will keep the cravings going.

Oh, and one more thing from your post resonated with me. Oatmeal. Most people love it, and it works well for them. Me, I get sleepy and starved within a couple of hours after I eat it. I've found that if I eat dinner-type foods for my first meal of the day and have oatmeal at night, it works a lot better. Weird, but there it is.

Goose