Joint Pain Elimination Diet Questions

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Re: Joint Pain Elimination Diet Questions

Postby Ltldogg » Thu Jan 08, 2015 6:21 pm

AnnaSpanna wrote:It's all good. I'm sorry too. I get a little defensive now and then. I hope I didn't come across too rabid. :D
We're all family here. :)


Thanks AnnaSpanna :D
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Re: Joint Pain Elimination Diet Questions

Postby nicoles » Thu Jan 08, 2015 9:55 pm

GievlosS wrote:I would be grateful for suggestions. I am trying to resolve joint pain/injury-that-refuses-to-heal issues using Dr. McD's elimination diet. I have been on the diet now for about two weeks. After three days, my pain was about 60 percent reduced. After a week, my pain was about 80-90 percent less. It seems to have plateaued there... which is, frankly, a fantastic improvement! But I would like to be entirely pain free some day...


2) What is the significance of my remaining pain? Could I still be reacting to something on the "allowed" list? Or does my body just need more time to heal? Should I try the four-day water-only fast to see? Or just wait...? Should I stick with the allowed list until the pain is all gone? Or should I start adding in new foods (I anticipate that I will react to wheat, yeast, chocolate, and possibly red grapes... but who knows...)? (I know that y'all aren't doctors but I am interested in any relevant experiences...).

3) Is there a physical component to joint pain recovery? Instinct tells me to continue to protect the injured joint and let it rest (I find both sitting and prolonged standing painful)--which means that I've been lying down a lot). My latest doctor (an osteopath to whom I would give a solid C+ (averaging with an "A-" in understanding of joints and a "D" in dietary advice) is permitted walking, swimming, and gentle yoga--but he does not want me to avoid sitting and standing. I am... puzzled.


Hi GievlosS,

I have some experience with lingering joint pain and deciphering what is physical and what is illness or food-related, so maybe what I have learned will be helpful.

Sounds like your pain is injury-related, not illness-related, and that it has responded well so far to the Elimination Diet. This leads me to guess that whatever injury you might have had could not heal properly due to a food intolerance or some sort of circulation issue (perhaps caused by higher fat foods) and now is being given the opportunity to finally heal. So, that may take a little time, only way to know is to wait and see.

On the other hand, perhaps the 80-90% of the pain that went away was caused by a food intolerance, and the last 10 percent was and still is caused by some movement misalignment which continues to slightly re-injure the area as it is used? In which case I would not think that rest was the trick, but some detective work in regards to movement might help.

For myself, having had psoriatic arthritis and some lingering pains post-diet change, I discovered that a good many of those pains were due to either tightness, weakness (or both) in the muscles surrounding the joints, and I needed to address those issues to get rid of those pains, no amount of ED-ing or fasting was going to change them.

I found the Pete Egoscue's Pain Free books to be very helpful, as well as Hanna Somatic Exercises and much of what Katy Bowman teaches. I got the books out of the library, and a lot of what KB has on her blog is helpful and free. (Also helpful are some of the blogs she links to on the lower right side).

I wish you healing!

Nicole
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Re: Joint Pain Elimination Diet Questions

Postby GievlosS » Fri Jan 09, 2015 12:08 pm

Thanks so much for all the tips and encouragement. Things are still going well... I have been able to put my aspirin bottle away, and sit down for extended periods to type! This is very exciting.

In answer to one question above, I have been dealing with this injury/joint pain since October of 2014. Before that I had just twinges... occasional minor issues with back, neck, shoulders, wrists, and knees.

To check that I am doing this right, here is what I am eating... this is pretty easy to do, since it is a short list, and most days look pretty much the same:

Only water to drink (a nice cup of hot water in the mornings), only seasoning is salt (I am not on a salt-restricted diet and my blood pressure is on the low side). Everything made from scratch except the rice cakes...

Yesterday: Breakfast was split pea soup made from scratch without oil, containing peas, carrots, a little kombu (I think that is kelp), salt, and water. Lunch: Roasted yam. Dinner: Steamed broccoli, steamed spinach, and some brown rice cakes (listed ingredients: brown rice, salt).

Today: Breakfast: More pea soup, same recipe as before. Lunch: Roasted sweet potato with a little salt, and roasted apple slices. Dinner: Err... probably another sweet potato. Maybe I'll make rice.

Also on the menu for the past week, though I don't remember exact dates and times: Steamed kale; green beans; green peas; boiled beets; beet greens; pea soup made with (peas, celery, carrots, salt); steamed red cabbage; roasted carrots; roasted peaches, roasted pears. (I really need to invest in an apple corer).

And here is another question: Do leafy herbs things like mint, thyme, dill, and sage count as "green vegetables" that can be eaten without too much concern? (not cilantro... I know some folks are sensitive to that). Or do I need to do the careful re-introduction for leafy herbs, too? I would not mind a cup of mint tea.

And a related question... how does one go about introducing things that are usually used just for flavoring, like coriander, nutmeg, or black pepper? The articles to say to eat a LOT of the food being introduced. I can't really see myself eating an entire meal of black pepper or nutmeg. I think that would be a bit of a shock to the taste buds.
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Re: Joint Pain Elimination Diet Questions

Postby Ltldogg » Fri Jan 09, 2015 1:43 pm

Hi GievlosS,

Thanks for the data on what you eat. If you have not already, be sure to start strictly with Dr. McDougall's elimination diet, which for you would mean taking out the peas/lentils, kombu and all spices (minus salt). After 7-14 days of eating like this, you should see inflammation go way down if no go away completely. Then you add one food/spice in at a time. If it is a spice, add it to each meal for 2-3 days and if problems arise, eliminate from your diet. If not, add 1 more item in every meal for 2-3 days, etc.

I hope this helps,
Scott
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Re: Joint Pain Elimination Diet Questions

Postby nicoles » Fri Jan 09, 2015 5:32 pm

Ltldogg wrote:Hi GievlosS,

Thanks for the data on what you eat. If you have not already, be sure to start strictly with Dr. McDougall's elimination diet, which for you would mean taking out the peas/lentils, kombu and all spices (minus salt). After 7-14 days of eating like this, you should see inflammation go way down if no go away completely. Then you add one food/spice in at a time. If it is a spice, add it to each meal for 2-3 days and if problems arise, eliminate from your diet. If not, add 1 more item in every meal for 2-3 days, etc.

I hope this helps,
Scott



I agree with Scott with one extra bit - if there is a chance that your are sensitive to corn, or may have an autoimmune disease, you will want to exclude salt for two reasons.

1) Table salt is often cut with cornstarch to reduce clumping; if corn is a problem, you might not get relief on the E.D. while using it.

2) Salt consumption is linked with autoimmune disease promotionand flare ups, so if there is any chance of it being an autoimmune disease (and it sounds at least possible to me) then limiting salt can only help. (with the efficacy of the E.D., not the ease of doing the E.D., sadly.)

Here is the ED as outlined by Dr McDougall here:

Dr McDougall wrote:In general, if you cannot identify a definite organic cause for your health problem, then suspect that it might be due to an allergy, especially to one caused by something you’re eating. Then search for the culprit. A dietary approach to managing food allergies is the safest and most sensible step you can take for testing and for treatment. Take symptom-controlling drugs only as a last resort.

The next step in identifying a food that might be the cause of your allergy is to follow an elimination diet. This diet allows you to eat the foods that are least likely to cause your allergic reaction. When you begin this diet, allow about one week in order to completely clear the body of foods that were eaten before starting the diet. By the end of this week, if their trouble was indeed due to their foods, most people will be relieved of symptoms. During the elimination period, all foods should be thoroughly cooked, because cooking alters the proteins in them, making them less likely to provoke allergic responses.

Foods to eat on an elimination diet:

Starches (all cooked), including:

brown rice
sweet potatoes
winter squash
taro (or poi)
tapioca rice flour
puffed rice


Most Green, Yellow, or Orange Vegetables (all cooked), including:

beets
beet greens
chard
summer squash
artichokes
celery
string beans
asparagus
spinach
lettuce


Fruits (all cooked), Most non-citrus including:

peaches
cranberries
apricots
papaya
plums
prunes
cherries


Condiments:

Salt only is allowed (if not restricted for other health reasons). (This means no salad dressings, mustard, lemon juice, vinegar, as well as other condiments.)

Beverages:

water

After a week on this kind of fare, your food allergies should have ended and you should be feeling well. If this is the case, then you should begin to add other foods to the diet, but only one at a time, to determine if any of them causes your allergic reactions. For testing purposes, each “new” food should be eaten in large amounts three times a day for two days.

If the food does not cause a reaction, you can conclude that it is nonallergenic. Most reactions occur within a few hours, but some do not show up for several days. Each food must be tested individually; do not introduce two new foods at once. When you do have an allergic reaction to a specific food, you must wait four to seven days before testing the next item. This interval gives you the time you need to clear your system of that allergy-causing food.
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Re: Joint Pain Elimination Diet Questions

Postby Ltldogg » Fri Jan 09, 2015 5:39 pm

I agree with nicoles 100% and was going to mention the salt thing (but forgot) just due to the amount that you appear to have in your diet, which seems very excessive. Even though Dr. McDougall allows for some salt, it is still in small portions compared to the standard american diet and for good reasons. I refer you to search for thread posts from Jeff Novick, the resident Nutrition Expert and overall super intelligent person, for his great threads on Salt and especially the woes of excessive salt.

Cheers,
Scott
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Re: Joint Pain Elimination Diet Questions

Postby israelIma » Sat Jan 10, 2015 11:59 pm

I want to try the elimination diet, as my arthritis pain is not going away on the regular diet. I have a couple of questions:

1. Can I eat brown rice pasta, as both brown rice and brown rice flour are on the list of permitted foods?
2. I know it says Water Only, but is tea (herbal or black) really a common allergen? I drink coffee and it is hard to imagine not having some hot beverage! (I will definitely have caffeine withdrawal which is very difficult for me--severe headache and nausea).

That's it for now. Thanks for the help.
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Re: Joint Pain Elimination Diet Questions

Postby nicoles » Sun Jan 11, 2015 10:48 am

israelIma wrote:I want to try the elimination diet, as my arthritis pain is not going away on the regular diet. I have a couple of questions:

1. Can I eat brown rice pasta, as both brown rice and brown rice flour are on the list of permitted foods?
2. I know it says Water Only, but is tea (herbal or black) really a common allergen? I drink coffee and it is hard to imagine not having some hot beverage! (I will definitely have caffeine withdrawal which is very difficult for me--severe headache and nausea).

That's it for now. Thanks for the help.


Hi IsraelIma,

1) I think so. I did. ;-)
2) caffeinated teas have the potential to be a problem, so sadly they are not on the ED. The fact that you have headaches and nausea when going off coffee speaks to their potentail to be health damaging.

As an aside, I suffered similarly from getting off coffee and caffeine. What I found to be most helpful in avoiding the extreme headaches and nausea was a gradual reduction. Cutting with 1/4% decaf one week, then 1/2, then 3/4, over the course of a month. I spent another month cutting my 100% decaf coffee with peppermint tea in the same manner, until finally I was just having the peppermint tea. That was the only way for me to avoid the headaches, nausea and vomiting of withdrawal. As it turns out, caffeine is a major cause of joint pain for me as I learned when I tried some again after being on the ED for awhile.
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Re: Joint Pain Elimination Diet Questions

Postby Timaca » Sun Jan 11, 2015 4:50 pm

Two thoughts:

(1) Sea salt doesn't (usually) have any additives in it, so it can be used in an elimination diet if desired.

(2) People can react to the chemicals in the foods (salicylates, tyramine, histamine, nitrates, glutamates, etc). This makes it much more tricky to identify what is going on since different foods contain different amounts of those chemicals, and you might not have symptoms until a certain threshold has been met (eg...you eat tomatoes, spinach and avocados...then have a problem, so you suspect the avocado, but it was the histamine in all the foods added together that caused the problem). It *seems* I have a histamine intolerance (among other food intolerances), so spinach (which is high in histamine) didn't work for me. I will probably be eating foods high in histamine next week so we'll see how that goes......(I tend to get headaches, brain fog, joint pain and other symptoms when I eat a food that doesn't work....)

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Re: Joint Pain Elimination Diet Questions

Postby GievlosS » Mon Jan 12, 2015 10:28 am

Thanks much. I will eliminate salt, though I have been using quite small amounts.

I had put legumes (peas only so far) back in my diet after doing a full ten days with the McDougall short elimination diet list... so the peas were a re-introduced food rather than a food that I consumed when I first started the elimination diet. I did not have any kind of reaction to them so far as I can tell, but maybe I didn't give it enough time. I think, just for fun, I will eliminate them again, after I've finished my current pot of soup. I am also going to experiment with eliminating brown rice, to see what happens.

IsrealIma, I have been having just plain hot water (filtered water) as a coffee/tea substitute. It took a couple of days for me to get over the caffeine headaches. Now I find a nice cup of hot water surprisingly refreshing.
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Re: Joint Pain Elimination Diet Questions

Postby israelIma » Mon Jan 12, 2015 10:33 am

I'll try the hot water!

I did well today: artichokes, brown rice, apple, winter squash, beets, sweet potato, lettuce (who knew it tastes good cooked?). I will probably have another sweet potato as a snack tonight.

Has anyone found anything to do with rice flour (that is on the allowed list)? I can't quite figure out how I can use it.
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Re: Joint Pain Elimination Diet Questions

Postby GievlosS » Mon Jan 12, 2015 12:20 pm

BTW, could anyone tell me why kombu would not be allowed? I figured it was okay as a green vegetable of sorts.

The only thing I can think of to do with rice flour is...

--Use it to thicken a simple vegetable soup.
--Make very simple flat "pancackes" to serve with apple sauce or roasted peaches.
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Re: Joint Pain Elimination Diet Questions

Postby Cupcake » Fri Jan 16, 2015 3:13 pm

Thank you, AnnaSpanna, I thought the chart was useful in that it gave me an idea of which foods in each category were the most allergenic. Of course, I will still read up on and follow Dr. McDougall's advice if I try the Elimination Diet, as Scott suggests.
Started McDougall Nov. 1, 2014. I've lost weight and reversed my pre-diabetes! Goals include further weight-loss in a sustainable way (no yo-yo-ing), reduced arthritis, reduced CVD risk, & increased energy!

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Re: Joint Pain Elimination Diet Questions

Postby eXtremE » Sat Jan 17, 2015 9:49 am

I see nothing wrong with the link AnnaSpanna posted. Never close your mind to only one way of thinking. Explore all your options. It is all about learning as much as you can, not only do this and this only whether it is working or not.
On 7/8/2013, I decided to change my diet to a "mostly" WFPB diet. I have always been somewhat lean and muscular due to being a lifelong exerciser. Change in diet due to feeling crummy all the time despite a healthy outward appearance. Image
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Re: Joint Pain Elimination Diet Questions

Postby nicoles » Sat Jan 17, 2015 1:21 pm

GievlosS wrote:BTW, could anyone tell me why kombu would not be allowed? I figured it was okay as a green vegetable of sorts.


Is Kombu not allowed? I mean, it is not on the list of the McD recommended ED, but I see your point - it is kind of like a green vegetable.
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