Joint Pain Elimination Diet Questions

[GievlosS]

I would be grateful for suggestions. I am trying to resolve joint pain/injury-that-refuses-to-heal issues using Dr. McD's elimination diet. I have been on the diet now for about two weeks. After three days, my pain was about 60 percent reduced. After a week, my pain was about 80-90 percent less. It seems to have plateaued there... which is, frankly, a fantastic improvement! But I would like to be entirely pain free some day...

I am doing this on my own. The doctors I have tried (I'm on my fifth doctor) have been able to give me only temporary relief using drugs or manipulation/stretching.

I have some questions about the elimination diet.

1) Are apples and pears permitted? They are not citrus... but they are not listed as "permitted" in the McDougall articles I have read. What about yams? (Sweet potatoes are listed as okay, but my grocer does not always carry them).

2) What is the significance of my remaining pain? Could I still be reacting to something on the "allowed" list? Or does my body just need more time to heal? Should I try the four-day water-only fast to see? Or just wait...? Should I stick with the allowed list until the pain is all gone? Or should I start adding in new foods (I anticipate that I will react to wheat, yeast, chocolate, and possibly red grapes... but who knows...)? (I know that y'all aren't doctors but I am interested in any relevant experiences...).

3) Is there a physical component to joint pain recovery? Instinct tells me to continue to protect the injured joint and let it rest (I find both sitting and prolonged standing painful)--which means that I've been lying down a lot). My latest doctor (an osteopath to whom I would give a solid C+ (averaging with an "A-" in understanding of joints and a "D" in dietary advice) is permitted walking, swimming, and gentle yoga--but he does not want me to avoid sitting and standing. I am... puzzled.

[nayasmom]

Hi,
Have you had or should you have physical therapy?
Have you been diagnosed with osteoarthritis?
Do you know exactly what kind of injury you have? By that I mean did you have an MRI or ultrasound or something like that?

Re the elimination diet: Yes, you can still have sensitivities to foods listed on that diet. Instead of adding in foods now, you may need to do tests on the foods you're eating right now. Eliminate one food now for a few days and see if you feel any differently. Either you will or you won't, and you'll know to keep away from that food or that it's safe to allow it back in. Do that one food at a time.

On treating the issue, lying down to rest a lower extremity joint is the worst thing you can do. You need to learn safe and effective range-of-motion exercises (physical therapy) as well as continuing to do as much weight-bearing as you can handle. If you don't, the muscles can atrophy and weaken, which is even worse than having an injury. The joint can also become frozen (stuck). Part of physical therapy includes icing the joint while it is elevated. Depending on which joint it is, you could be doing a gentle extension with light weight exercise.
I was recently diagnosed with advanced arthritis (chondromalacia) in my knee and I'm presently having 6 weeks of physical therapy to teach me strengthening exercises that will help either prevent or minimize future issues as I try to keep up a running program. They don't take very long, and are gentle, and I've started using my home treadmill for 30-minute walking-pace workouts; so far, so good, but I haven't started back up running again.
Good luck!
Robyn

[Vegankit]

1) Are apples and pears permitted? They are not citrus... but they are not listed as "permitted" in the McDougall articles I have read. What about yams? (Sweet potatoes are listed as okay, but my grocer does not always carry them).

If I remember correctly, apples and pears are permitted but should be eaten cooked at the beginning- hopefully someone more knowledgeable will be able to address this more definitively. The "yams" in your grocery store are probably sweet potatoes - we don't usually see real yams in grocery stores - here is some info that would be helpful http://www.loc.gov/rr/scitech/mysteries ... otato.html

2) What is the significance of my remaining pain? Could I still be reacting to something on the "allowed" list? Or does my body just need more time to heal? Should I try the four-day water-only fast to see? Or just wait...? Should I stick with the allowed list until the pain is all gone? Or should I start adding in new foods (I anticipate that I will react to wheat, yeast, chocolate, and possibly red grapes... but who knows...)? (I know that y'all aren't doctors but I am interested in any relevant experiences...).

It can take time for the body to heal - after all it took years for the damage to develop. You could react to something on the list but those foods are choose to be least likely candidates and given that you have eliminated so much pain, I suspect the answer lies with time and adherence to this way of eating. It takes a long time to properly do the elimination diet - I would work on determining what foods are safe to eat and avoid any that you suspect you will react too. You want to built up a number of food choices that are safe, then you can go back and test the initial few foods as well as those you believe are problems.

3) Is there a physical component to joint pain recovery? Instinct tells me to continue to protect the injured joint and let it rest (I find both sitting and prolonged standing painful)--which means that I've been lying down a lot). My latest doctor (an osteopath to whom I would give a solid C+ (averaging with an "A-" in understanding of joints and a "D" in dietary advice) is permitted walking, swimming, and gentle yoga--but he does not want me to avoid sitting and standing. I am... puzzled.

As someone with arthritis I can tell you the worst thing is prolonged rest, just as nayasmom stated - you need to continue to build up the muscles to avoid atrophy which is a serious problem. The advice your osteopath has given you - walking, swimming and gentle yoga is correct. Check around your community for swimming exercise programs for people with arthritis - they are done in heated pools which makes it more comfortable. If you have a particular problem with a joint, then physiotherapy would be very helpful. I find prolonged sitting and standing makes me stiff so I get up often and just walk around to loosen up.

[GievlosS]

Thanks so much. It should like my new plan should be to a) give the diet lots of time before I introduce anything suspect and b) check the elimination diet items too, eliminating one at a time (maybe starting with brown rice, because I don't enjoy cleaning the rice cooker anyway. For a while it seemed to be magically self-cleaning... then I caught my cat licking it). I won't try the water-only fast until I've tried these other things first. For one thing, water only for four days is going to make me a little cranky. Better wait until husband and child take a trip somewhere. And I will stick with walking/yoga and add swimming if I can make it work with our schedules (sigh).

To answer questions.

My diagnosis is (so far) a strained sacrum (that is a bone in the pelvic area that can get pushed out of place in childbirth, among other things), "lesions" on my joints (must ask Fallible Physician #5 what this means), lumbago, and hypothyroidism. Physician #5 also wants to diagnose me with "estrogen imbalance" but I flatly refused to cooperate further due to the disturbing billing practices of the "alternative" lab he chose for my other tests. It has been noted that I have some (not much) inflammation in my joints generally, and the term "arthritis" has been thrown around casually by one of my doctors (Unsatisfactory Physician #3). Unsatisfactory Physician #2 requested an MRI but my insurer declined; often, in the case of tailbone pain, neither X-rays nor MRI's shed much light on the subject. It's a very inconvenient place to be injured.

Physical therapy is on my "to try" list. I've been a bit wary of it. Some of the folks on tailbonepain.com (where people with pelvic injuries hang out) report that their injuries were aggravated by therapists who did not know exactly what they were doing. There is a woman who specializes in coccyx/sacrum pain one state over... she's supposed to be great, but since it hurts me to sit for long periods (or short period, for that matter) in my car, I'm not enthused about driving that far.

[GievlosS]

Just a note to add that the stretches that my osteopath (Fallible Physician #5) has me doing might qualify as physical therapy of a sort, though I do it at home rather than at a facility. He also prescribed walking and the yoga.

Weekly (at first) he did some kind of manipulation in his office (putting pressure on certain areas of my back and stretches affecting the hip and knees). At first this was highly effective--knocked the pain back 30-40 percent before the elimination diet. But, over time, the manipulation no longer seemed to work as well. Not sure what to make of that...

[AnnaSpanna]

http://www.allergynutrition.com/wp-cont ... llergy.pdf

Scroll to the last page for a chart of foods.
Ignoring the meat and dairy side, eat from the bottom of the list and work your way up.

See also the support group for help on your journey if you haven't been there already.

viewtopic.php?f=38&t=37790

[jsimps25]

Hello,
My name is Jeff I am a 25 year old Fire Fighter in colorado springs and I was recently diagnosed with Rheumatoid Arthritis. I am very interested in using this new diet to try to improve my over all health. By all "normally accepted" standards I was/am in excellent health but always have felt there was something missing. I will keep you posted but my wife and I are making a life change.

[Ltldogg]

No offense intended, but I would advise you to ignore the URL suggested by AnnaSpanna because that chart at the bottom contradicts Dr. McDougall's own elimination diet. Just follow Dr. McDougall's elimination plan as prescribed here: https://www.drmcdougall.com/health/educ ... s-to-food/.

[bluesmamma5]

yea, Im new to this . I have been eating more plant less meat. and i have lost weight,which is lovely. but I still have pain and haven't figured out how to get all the way better. I do have my ra poistive factor down to 30, which is good. normal is 20. does anyone know if some plant food is better for this than others? thanks

[AnnaSpanna]

The list I posted was originally given to me by Timaca who has had the most problems of anyone I know with food intolerances on this board. It can be used along with Dr. McD's recommendations. It is not meant to replace them.
This is not an either/or.

[Ltldogg]

The list I posted was originally given to me by Timaca who has had the most problems of anyone I know with food intolerances on this board. It can be used along with Dr. McD's recommendations. It is not meant to replace them.
This is not an either/or.

Actually it is. Dr. McDougall's elimination diet is setup a particular way to help people eat healthy and identify sensitivities or allergies. There is a reason he has it setup the way he does and since the other list contradicts, I would not recommend it; especially since his method works.

[AnnaSpanna]

And yet rice, one of the foods he recommends, can be a problem to some people, myself included.
So, it didn't work for me.

I am not saying don't listen to Dr. McD. I am just saying it may pay to be open to the idea that if you eat from the lower allergens you may have less trouble trying to find something to eat.

This isn't a competition. This is about helping others which is what I was trying to do.
Others doing the elimination diet may find it more helpful to go to the support group link. Talk about it with those who've been through it.

[Ltldogg]

And yet rice, one of the foods he recommends, can be a problem to some people, myself included.
So, it didn't work for me.

I am not saying don't listen to Dr. McD. I am just saying it may pay to be open to the idea that if you eat from the lower allergens you may have less trouble trying to find something to eat.

This isn't a competition. This is about helping others which is what I was trying to do.
Others doing the elimination diet may find it more helpful to go to the support group link. Talk about it with those who've been through it.

Hi AnnaSpanna,

You are right, this is not a competition. I am sorry. I worry because too many times on these very boards you see people recommending sites and advice that contradict Dr. McDougall's and Jeff Novick's. Often times people are not following the guidelines and advice and yet wondering why they are still having problems, but willing to try other things.

Cheers,
Scott

[Ltldogg]

I would be grateful for suggestions. I am trying to resolve joint pain/injury-that-refuses-to-heal issues using Dr. McD's elimination diet. I have been on the diet now for about two weeks. After three days, my pain was about 60 percent reduced. After a week, my pain was about 80-90 percent less. It seems to have plateaued there... which is, frankly, a fantastic improvement! But I would like to be entirely pain free some day...

I am doing this on my own. The doctors I have tried (I'm on my fifth doctor) have been able to give me only temporary relief using drugs or manipulation/stretching.

I have some questions about the elimination diet.

1) Are apples and pears permitted? They are not citrus... but they are not listed as "permitted" in the McDougall articles I have read. What about yams? (Sweet potatoes are listed as okay, but my grocer does not always carry them).

2) What is the significance of my remaining pain? Could I still be reacting to something on the "allowed" list? Or does my body just need more time to heal? Should I try the four-day water-only fast to see? Or just wait...? Should I stick with the allowed list until the pain is all gone? Or should I start adding in new foods (I anticipate that I will react to wheat, yeast, chocolate, and possibly red grapes... but who knows...)? (I know that y'all aren't doctors but I am interested in any relevant experiences...).

3) Is there a physical component to joint pain recovery? Instinct tells me to continue to protect the injured joint and let it rest (I find both sitting and prolonged standing painful)--which means that I've been lying down a lot). My latest doctor (an osteopath to whom I would give a solid C+ (averaging with an "A-" in understanding of joints and a "D" in dietary advice) is permitted walking, swimming, and gentle yoga--but he does not want me to avoid sitting and standing. I am... puzzled.

To the original poster's questions:

1. Yes Apples and pears are permitted but they must be cooked. When you read the allowed foods list (https://www.drmcdougall.com/health/educ ... s-to-food/) it doesn't list ALL the foods allowed, but it does use the wording "including", which both Dr. McDougall and Jeff Novick have clarified to mean that the list on that page are not comprehensive because the list would be too long. So, since neither apples nor pears are citrus fruits, you can eat them, but per the elimination diet they need to be cooked. Also, per the diet, you need to introduce only one food at a time and in large quantities for a few days to be able to identify its affect on your body.

2. There is no way for me to tell you the significance of the remaining pain, but if I had to guess I would say you have not given nearly enough time to fix the issue completely. How long have you lived with the problem? Being healthy takes time and adherence and the elimination diet is no exception.

Perhaps you are not following the elimination diet properly. List exactly what you have eaten for that one week and how the food was prepared. Don't leave out anything.

3. Yes, but to what degree I couldn't tell you. If you are feeling as vast improvement as you say, it would appear to be caused by food mostly, if not all. So get out there and be active as your body allows it. That doesn't mean you need to go run a marathon, just be active. Search Jeff Novick's post for advice about how active the average person should be for good health if you want further advice.

I hope this helps.

Cheers,
Scott

[AnnaSpanna]

And yet rice, one of the foods he recommends, can be a problem to some people, myself included.
So, it didn't work for me.

I am not saying don't listen to Dr. McD. I am just saying it may pay to be open to the idea that if you eat from the lower allergens you may have less trouble trying to find something to eat.

This isn't a competition. This is about helping others which is what I was trying to do.
Others doing the elimination diet may find it more helpful to go to the support group link. Talk about it with those who've been through it.

Hi AnnaSpanna,

You are right, this is not a competition. I am sorry. I worry because too many times on these very boards you see people recommending sites and advice that contradict Dr. McDougall's and Jeff Novick's. Often times people are not following the guidelines and advice and yet wondering why they are still having problems, but willing to try other things.

Cheers,
Scott

It's all good. I'm sorry too. I get a little defensive now and then. I hope I didn't come across too rabid.
We're all family here.