Vitamin D

[Rotterdam]

Tried searching the index and the search engine says "ignoring D" whether I do the D first or last. Anyway, just reading Dr. McDougall's advice on Vitamin D (don't take it) and just recently read a blog by Dr. Michael Greger who says "yes, take it". This is where I constantly feel frustrated. Both are well-respected in their fields but have conflicting advice. I've addressed this issue before and basically feel that I'm being told this is the only right forum. Anyone else feel this way?

[sirdle]

Try Jeff Novick's forum under Greetings & Hot Topics

Vitamin D
http://www.drmcdougall.com/forums/viewt ... 22&t=20770
http://drmcdougall.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5604
http://www.drmcdougall.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7237
http://www.drmcdougall.com/forums/viewt ... 22&t=44463


But to answer your question, the important difference for me is that Dr McDougall has decades of clinical experience diagnosing and treating medical problems. To the best of my knowledge Dr Greger does not (I could be wrong about this).

Good luck finding the answers you're looking for.

Cheers,

[deweyswakms]

I too am a bit peeved at the Vitamin D newsletter that just went out. I would LOVE to get more sunshine on my skin, but I live in the dim NW where we get reliable sunshine maybe 5-6 months of the year. And my blood levels of Vit D are low, so I do take supplements and use a natural light in the darker months. I think that newsletter was short on information for those of us who can't get much sunshine, certainly not 10 minutes during the middle of the day. Funny. I was going out now, to get in a walk, but the rains have already started.

And I read the above JeffN links, data from several years ago. Now I wonder if I should even be taking any D supplements as they seem to be ineffective for anything. Not enough science. Although I have family history for cancer of the colon, mother died from it, and I have had a colon resection for embedded precancerous polyps. All tests have been clean and clear, thanks to WFPB eating. So maybe I should keep taking my D supplement (5000 units) in case it protects against that? again, not enough hard science to know.

[deweyswakms]

But to answer your question, the important difference for me is that Dr McDougall has decades of clinical experience diagnosing and treating medical problems. To the best of my knowledge Dr Greger does not (I could be wrong about this).

Dr. Greger is a highly esteemed WFPS physician. https://drgreger.org/pages/about-us

[sirdle]

But to answer your question, the important difference for me is that Dr McDougall has decades of clinical experience diagnosing and treating medical problems. To the best of my knowledge Dr Greger does not (I could be wrong about this).

Dr. Greger is a highly esteemed WFPS physician. https://drgreger.org/pages/about-us

Dr Greger is licensed as a general practitioner specializing in clinical nutrition. He is very intelligent and I have great respect for his opinions; however, I have a hard time finding any information about his clinical practice... either on his own web page or on his Wikipedia page. (I can find plenty of information about his writings and the organizations that he belongs to.)

In contrast, Dr McDougall's Wikipedia page lists where he interned, where he resided, and where he practiced.

As I say, I could be wrong about this.

Cheers,

[Lyndzie]

Dr. Greger is a WFBP physician. “Highly-esteemed” depends on who you are talking to.

The people whose advice I trust most are Dr. McDougall and Jeff. After that is Dr. Esselstyn, then Dr. Barnard. Dr. Greger is pretty far down the list, right above Dr. Furhman.

[Rotterdam]

See, that's where I falter. On what do you base your opinion of these physicians as to their reliability? They all seem to be on various seminars together, and for the most part, their advice is quite similar. I am drawn to one or the other based on my own medical history and research background which is quite subjective. I have nothing objective on which to base my preference for one or the other. My bottom line usually is ... how was man created to live? I can't imagine Adam and Eve chugging pills so my thinking is usually - what can I do naturally - in the case of Vitamin D - sit in the sunshine - which would be fine if we had had a summer - out of about 75 days we had 55 days of rain. Hard to bask in the sunlight, more so when you live in a northern climate as I do. I'm plant-based so don't eat fish. It's not a life crisis question, but I'm always curious.

[Vanilla Orchid]

I don't know who is right either, but my experience is this: Some years ago my doctor tested me for Vitamin D and it was waaaay low. I took her prescribed massive doses of Vitamin D supplements, and tested in the normal range. Then she told me to take OTC Vitamin D for life. Dr. McDougall advised against that, suggesting sunlight instead. I live where it is too cold (for me) to expose that much of my skin to sunlight on a regular basis. So, I bought a Sperti Vitamin D lamp instead. My doctor said she had never heard of it and didn't know if it would work. It did. It does. My husband and I sit in front of it every other day, alternating front and back. It does not tan you and used per instructions does not burn you. It is not the same as a sunlamp or the lamps people use for SAD. It's pricey. It's worth it.

[Plumerias]

Hey VO! Long ago I had a Sunbox to help with my winter blues when we lived in Ohio. Are they related? How long do your light bulbs last and how difficult is it to replace them? Thanks.

[viv]

I take vit D. Two months ago my lab results came back low for vit D at 25 ng/mL when the standard range is 30 - 100 ng/mL. I had been taking vit D sporadically but now I make sure to take a 1000 IU tab every day. The doc wrote a prescription for me to take the really high dose vit D 50,000 units for 7 days, but I was a bit leery, and did not take it.

In the same vein (!) Dr. McDougall recommends that vit B12 supplementation should start a couple of years after going vegan and that only low doses are required. However I began to get symptoms of low B12 and my labs came back very low. I now take 1000 B12 daily.

I have a highly developed intuition and listen to my body, ask your body what it needs, it just might answer you back!

Viv

[JeffN]

Some comments...

1) The vitamin D craze is passing and much of the hype around how much to take and what levels are optimal, has proven to be way overblown

Vitamin D: More may not be better
http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/ea ... 5.abstract

"Vitamin D in the 20–36 ng/ml range was associated with the lowest risk for mortality and morbidity. The hazard ratio below and above this range increases significantly."


2) The recent RCT”s have shown no benefit and the USPSTF changed their recommendations
https://www.uspreventiveservicestaskfor ... medication


3) I don’t think we should be doing much, if any, vitamin D testing unless someone is high risk
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=10055


4) The acceptable level are much lower then being recommended

Vitamin D Deficiency — Is There Really a Pandemic?
NEJM 375;19 nejm.org November 10, 2016

http://www.nejm.org.sci-hub.cc/doi/pdf/ ... JMp1608005

"A common misconception is that the RDA functions as a “cut point” and that nearly the entire population must have a serum 25(OH)D level above 20 ng per milliliter to achieve good bone health. The reality is that the majority (about 97.5%) if the population has a requirement of 20 ng per milliliter or less. Moreover, by definition of an average requirement, approximately half the population has a requirement of 16 ng per milliliter (the EAR) or less. . These concepts are depicted in the population reference-value distribution shown in Panel A, which highlights the relationship between the EAR and the RDA.


Vitamin D: What’s the “right” level?
Monique Tello, MD, MPH
JANUARY 06, 2017 (Updated)

http://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/vita ... 6121910893

“For perimenopausal women or other groups of people with higher fracture risk, certainly a level of 20 or above is ideal,” and he adds: “For the vast majority of healthy individuals, levels much lower, 15, maybe 10, are probably perfectly fine, and so I would say I agree with what the authors of the New England Journal perspective article are saying.”


Serum 25-hydroxyvitamin D level, chronic diseases and all-cause mortality in a population-based prospective cohort: the HUNT Study, Norway.
Sun YQ, Langhammer A, Skorpen F, Chen Y, Mai XM.
BMJ Open. 2017 Jul 3;7(6):e017256. doi: 10.1136/bmjopen-2017-017256.
PMID: 28674149 Free Article

http://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/7/6/e017256.long

It appears that the risk of dying flat lines above 15 to 16 ng/ml. The HR increases quite a bit once you get below 12 ng/ml. A level of 20ng/ml does not appear to be associated with any significant increased risk of dying from all causes. Up to 44ng/ml doesn't seem to be associated with any significant impact on the overall risk of dying. From this, it looks like 20 to 44ng/ml could be considered the normal range. Anything below 20ng/ml may be insufficient for some and anything below 12 to 15ng/ml appears to be associated with an increased risk of dying as many people maybe deficient.


I think anything from around 15- 20, up to 30- 35 is fine. I don’t recommend anything higher unless it occurs naturally from the sun. If someone is under 15, I would recommend first a trial with adequate sunshine, then if needed, add in foods with Vitamin D (Mushrooms), then if needed, artificial UV light. This is usually more then enough to achieve these levels.


I can link you to my full discussion on this, especially the last few years where most of this comes from.

Hope this helps
Jeff

[Ltldogg]

Some comments...

...
Hope this helps
Jeff

Jeff,

Thank you again for another excellent post with thorough, cited data. You are the best!

Cheers,
Scott

[JeffN]

Thanks

One more point.

The doctor most responsible for creating a billion-dollar juggernaut has received hundreds of thousands of dollars from the vitamin D industry
Vitamin D, the Sunshine Supplement, Has Shadowy Money Behind It
The New York Times
Aug. 18, 2018

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/18/busi ... olick.html

In addition, Dr. William Grant is an epidemiologist and founder of the nonprofit organization Sunlight, Nutrition and Health Research Center (SUNARC). He has written over 140 peer-reviewed articles and editorials on vitamin D and health. Dr. Grant is the Science Director of the Vitamin D Council and also serves on their Board. He holds a Ph.D. in Physics from UC
https://www.vitamindcouncil.org/author/ ... iam-grant/

This is his organization, Sunlight, Nutrition and Health Research Center (SUNARC).
http://www.sunarc.org

The benefactors of SUNARC:
SUNARC receives funding from Bio-Tech Pharmacal, Inc. (Fayetteville, AR).
http://www.sunarc.org/benefactors.html

Bio-Tech Pharmacal, Inc. (Fayetteville, AR) makes and sells Vitamin D
https://shop.biotechpharmacal.com/collections/vitamin-d

In Health
Jeff

[Ltldogg]

Thanks for the transparency and no surprise as this is the norm in the corporate world. As always, follow the money.

[Poison Ivy]

I take vit D. Two months ago my lab results came back low for vit D at 25 ng/mL when the standard range is 30 - 100 ng/mL. I had been taking vit D sporadically but now I make sure to take a 1000 IU tab every day. The doc wrote a prescription for me to take the really high dose vit D 50,000 units for 7 days, but I was a bit leery, and did not take it.

In the same vein (!) Dr. McDougall recommends that vit B12 supplementation should start a couple of years after going vegan and that only low doses are required. However I began to get symptoms of low B12 and my labs came back very low. I now take 1000 B12 daily.

I have a highly developed intuition and listen to my body, ask your body what it needs, it just might answer you back!

Viv

I agree with Viv on this one. I also take a small amount of Vit D daily. I respect all the doctor's various opinions but in the end, we must all make our own personal decisions about what we feel is best for us. There is still confusion and disagreement about this and always will be IMO.