A fishy question (?)

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A fishy question (?)

Postby Breithorn » Sat Dec 12, 2020 10:39 pm

Good morning to all of you,

In a documentary I recently saw on TV, a number of prominent doctors listed (in a, mind you, non-exhaustive list) the health risks of an animal diet, as highlighted in several scientific studies. Some of the statements made by the above experts in the documentary were as follows:

On animal-based diet as causation of cardiovasculair diseases

Dr Michael Greger M.D. Physician, author Nutritionfacts.org :

When we eat these, kind of, dead meat bacteria toxins, within minutes, you get this burst of inflammation within your system, such that you basically paralyze your arteries, you get this stiffening of the arteries, their inability to relax normally in half (endothelial dysfunction). So, it’s not like decades down the road eating unhealthy there’ll be some damage. No, we’re talking damage right then and there, within minutes of it going into our mouth.

Dr. Neal Barnard M.D., Clinical Researcher, Author, President PCRM:

The cause of diabetes ( being a risk factor for cardiovascular disease ) is a diet that builds up the amount of fat into the blood. In other words a typical meat-based, animal based diet. As a result the muscle cells of the human body built up tiny particles of fat, causing insulin resistance, which prevents the carbs from adequately providing energy for working muscles and /or being stored as glycogen in the cells.

Dr. Garth Davis, M.D., Weight Loss Surgeon, the Davis Clinic :

Meat-based diet causes plaques forming in your vessels, causing atherosclerosis

On animal-based diet as causation of cancer:

Dr. Neal Barnard M.D., Clinical Researcher, Author, President PCRM:

Heterocyclic amines are clear-cut carcinogens, which can form in any kind of meat as it’s heated, as it’s cooked. But by far the biggest source is chicken.

And so on, and so on.

However, when the subject of "fish" was broached, opinions were less pronounced and scholars were more ‘hesitant’. Where in the case of meat, extensive attention was paid to its harmful intrinsic properties, in the case of fish, the focus was, almost exclusively, on the health risks resulting from the accumulation of high concentrations of poisons such as mercury, PCBs, herbicides, pesticides and antibiotics.

I then wondered whether (saltwater) fish or certain types of seafood might be less harmful to health than meat.

After all, the risk of cancer caused by Heterocyclic amines is absent with the consumption of raw fish, as it has been eaten in Edo and its immediate surroundings since the 17th century and in the rest of Japan from the 19th century. And what about fermented fish?

Neither could hard and unambiguous statements be made about the saturated fat levels and cholesterol in fish, since they varied greatly per fish species (quote: “levels are all over the place”).

In view of the above, is it possible that fish, crustacean or shellfish, low in saturated fat and rich in omega-3 fatty acids, farmed under controlled an animal friendly conditions, in whose production no antibiotics and anti-fungals are used, or only in an emergency, as is usual with organic farmers, could yield a relatively safe animal product that is suitable for human consumption?
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Re: A fishy question (?)

Postby Ltldogg » Sat Dec 12, 2020 10:41 pm

No. You need to re-read all of the McDougall materials, books, watch his videos, etc. Animal products are harmful. Period!
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Re: A fishy question (?)

Postby debknott » Sun Dec 13, 2020 10:36 am

No. Dr. M advises that we eat no flesh of any kind. Seafood is not healthy.
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Re: A fishy question (?)

Postby KarenEC » Mon Dec 14, 2020 11:09 pm

Correct, no fish. Fish and seafood don't have any unique nutrients; we can get the same nutrients from plants, and stay healthy to boot. For minerals, include some sea vegetables. For omega-3, eat ground flax seeds.

For a clear no-fish and no-seafood message, check out Dr. McDougall's "Color Picture Book". It is a concise presentation that you can flip through in under 10 minutes. (Full screen mode works the best.) https://www.drmcdougall.com/health/education/cpb/
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Re: A fishy question (?)

Postby michaelswarm » Wed Dec 16, 2020 8:26 am

Atherosclerosis was found in ancient mummies of fishermen living in the Chile-Peru desert.
Their diet was estimated by to have been 90% seafood. Similar finding in Inuit mummies, who also lived primarily on marine foods.

https://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2014nl ... assfed.htm
https://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2011nl ... yptian.htm

- “Shell midden and bone chemistry suggest that 90% of the people's diet was seafood.”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinchorro_mummies

Fish was scarce in evolutionary history. It was not abundant like plants. There is no plausible reason to suppose humans would be well adapted to eat a scarce and difficult to obtain resource like seafood.

Fish are animals and all animal flesh is chemically similar: cholesterol, saturated fat, primarily fat and protein, no fiber.

The evidence against meat is becoming overwhelming. The evidence against fish is less so, but there is still plenty of evidence against. Evidence of fish being health supporting is weak, and would suggest caution and continued study, not safety.
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Re: A fishy question (?)

Postby Breithorn » Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:44 am

Thanks everyone, especially Michael, interesting reading material
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