Ultimate sourdough bread

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Ultimate sourdough bread

Postby GeoffreyLevens » Sat Oct 21, 2017 4:25 am

For anyone baking (or eating) sourdough bread. Just learned about this yesterday and have one rising now. Local woman has been a professional Macrobiotic chef for about 45 years. She is also a sourdough fanatic. As an indication of that, her culture has been in her family for over 100 years. Considering the realities of the biochemistry involved, I think that is a bit silly but there ya go. She also fresh grinds her own flour for each batch she bakes.

According to her research and experiments, the shorter fermentation times used in nearly all sourdough available in the US are not long enough to fully "convert" the gluten. Her longer version is supposed to dramatically reduce the allergenic potential and also reduce the breads glycemic impact. A lot of commercially sold sourdough is actually only allowed to ferment a very few hours and often, vinegar or some other acid is added to make it taste more sour. Of course that way you do not get anywhere near the complexity of flavors nor more importantly, the fermentation products which create them. I do know her bread is unlike any other I have had and tastes quite wonderful.

Below is her basic recipe. Use whatever flour(s) and hydration levels you prefer for the bread itself. Starter is used at 100% hydration which means equal weight of flour and water.

Long Rise Sourdough

Mix flour and water only and let autolyse for 12 hours
Mix approximately 50% of the total flour flour with equal weight of water plus starter culture
Knead about 5 minutes to develop the gluten
Cover well and let ferment for 15 hours
Add rest of flour and water (which can be premixed and allowed to "autolyse" during the 1st fermentation for the other 1/2)
After the 15 hours, knead the two together and proof until nearly doubled in size

Bake 450 degrees covered X 30 minutes then 15 minutes uncovered.
Or
Slow bake at 300-350F for longer time. I have been baking at 250F for 2 1/2 hours.
Last edited by GeoffreyLevens on Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ultimate sourdough bread

Postby GeoffreyLevens » Sat Oct 21, 2017 2:44 pm

When I got the info above I was not actually told about hydration level. From today's experiment, it seems that autolysing and fermenting for so long a time, dramatically changes the gluten structure so you will likely need to start at a lower hydration than you normally would. Experimentation is what is needed. My dough came out so loose it won't hold a rise but it is as smooth as silk...
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Re: Ultimate sourdough bread

Postby MINNIE » Sat Oct 21, 2017 7:08 pm

That's really interesting. A few weeks ago I started buying sourdough bread from a local baker who uses a home made starter and an 18 hour rise. The flavor is really intense and the bread doesn't need anything on it to taste good. It is just yeast and flour, no oil or sugar.

I am far too lazy to ever do this at home. The last time I baked a sourdough loaf was circa 1970.LOL.
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Re: Ultimate sourdough bread

Postby Willijan » Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:10 am

Does this recipe work with 100% whole wheat flour?
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Re: Ultimate sourdough bread

Postby GeoffreyLevens » Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:38 am

Minnie, your local baker is a rare gem. You are fortunate indeed.

Willijan, this will work with any whole grain or even refined flour. Modern whole wheat will rise much better/higher than the kamut I use or spelt, both of which contain gluten but of a less "robust" type. Rye won't rise much unless you cut it with some form of wheat. Same with any other grain, the non-gluten ones won't really rise at all but you will still get the complex, soured flavor regardless of whether or not you have a grain that will hold a rise in the mix.

I must admit, I am one of those who tend to go off the rails a bit when there is bread available so I always make miniature loaves, using about 1 1/4 cups whole grain kamut flour total. That and a salad or batch of steamed veg makes a meal.
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Re: Ultimate sourdough bread

Postby GrannyB » Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:04 am

Can someone explain that recipe to me....in English cooking language?
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Re: Ultimate sourdough bread

Postby AlwaysAgnes » Tue Oct 24, 2017 4:29 pm

GrannyB wrote:Can someone explain that recipe to me....in English cooking language?



This glossary might help. https://www.weekendbakery.com/bread-baking-glossary/


I buy California Goldminer sourdough, the one with the blue label. https://californiagoldminer.com/sourdough-breads

There are many sourdough bread videos on youtube. Here's (a slightly weird) one. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POnxAoHl1qc
You don't have to wait to be happy.
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Re: Ultimate sourdough bread

Postby GrannyB » Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:23 am

This is the part I would like to be able to understand:

"Add only 2% of flour weight of 100% starter (equal weight [not volume] flour and water"

What would this mean?
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Re: Ultimate sourdough bread

Postby AlwaysAgnes » Wed Oct 25, 2017 11:11 am

GrannyB wrote:This is the part I would like to be able to understand:

"Add only 2% of flour weight of 100% starter (equal weight [not volume] flour and water"

What would this mean?


I've never baked by weight in my life, but my guess would be: Find the weight of the amount of flour that's being used in recipe. Find out what 2% of that amount would be. That's the amount of starter to use. So, say the amount of flour is 100 grams. The amount of starter would be 2 grams.

King Arthur has a chart that shows weights for different flours. https://www.kingarthurflour.com/learn/i ... chart.html
Here's another page about water weight conversion (that mostly just makes me want to break something): http://www.traditionaloven.com/culinary ... -mass.html

:lol:
You don't have to wait to be happy.
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Re: Ultimate sourdough bread

Postby GeoffreyLevens » Sat Mar 10, 2018 4:28 pm

Update based on more reading and experiments~

In two separate bowls, divide flour into approximately 40% and 60%. Measure out your water and add to the 40% bowl equal WEIGHT of that water and the rest to the other bowl. Also add some starter or yeast to the 40% bowl. Mix need each bowl separately until ingredients well mixed then cover and walk away. After 8-15 hours (depending on the activity of your starter and the ambient temperature) kneed the two together and put in bannaton or baking dish. Again allow to "proof" for 8-15 hours, until about doubled in size. At that point I just bake it but many people stop a couple before that, gently shape into loaf without knocking much air out of it, and let it proof again. Goal is that size doubling though with sourdough culture it may not grow quite that much.

Bake as you would any bread. The much longer proofing/fermenting times dramatically enhances flavor and may increase digestibility.

This is really just a standard sponge or levain method except for the much longer rise times.
Last edited by GeoffreyLevens on Sat Mar 10, 2018 5:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ultimate sourdough bread

Postby f00die » Sat Mar 10, 2018 4:49 pm

dunno if this qualifies
but for a while there i was baking bread.
started out with the usual
yeast water flour salt sugar
then id leave a chunk of the dough for tomorrow
at night id add flour water (sugar and salt as needed)
all unmeasured
id eyeball the consistency of the dough
after a while you get what its supposed to be like
in the morning or so, id bake the dough into 1 or 2 loaves
did this for a bit longer than a month
making a daily loaf.
the only yeast i added was the first batch
the bread got more and more sour as the days went by
then i got tired of making bread

one thing i noticed,
the flour you use makes the biggest difference
in the taste of the bread
bread flour, organic, all-purpose, pastry etc.
tried them all during this period

breadmaking is a very forgiving process i found
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Re: Ultimate sourdough bread

Postby GeoffreyLevens » Sat Mar 10, 2018 5:04 pm

Your store bought yeast gradually "converted" to sourdough culture. The micro-organisms are in the flour already (or on the whole grain when intact). The way you start a sourdough culture 1st time is just mix flour and water and let stand until bubbly. Discard 1/2 of it and add more flour and water. After a couple "feedings" it is pretty much fully developed culture, a mix of microbes. Seems to me that is about what you did only you jump started the first few loaves with the store yeast.
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Re: Ultimate sourdough bread

Postby kirkj » Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:25 am

Whenever I think of making sourdough I wonder where I can get a good starter.

Geoffrey, have you had good luck with that kind of home made starter? I don't bake bread now because I also go off the rails with it. But, years ago I tried creating my own sourdough starter as you describe and the resulting bread was pretty bad.
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Re: Ultimate sourdough bread

Postby GeoffreyLevens » Sun Mar 11, 2018 5:26 pm

Starter is EASY! So long as the flour you use has not been sterilized it just does it almost by itself. I have always ground my own grain fresh in Blendtec, fairly course grind. But pre-ground flour works fine and is what most people use I think.

This site sells starter but expensive. They also put up recipe to "capture" your own, It is so easy to do I recommend it!

Sourdough Starter Recipe
Ingredients:
Flour
Water as free from contaminants as possible
A warm temperature, 70°-85°F
Equipment:
A non-reactive vessel in which you make and store the starter (glass or plastic)
A non-reactive stirring device
A breathable lid such as a clean towel or coffee filter
A space to ferment with no other cultured foods nearby

Combine ¾ cup flour and ½ cup warm water in a glass or plastic container. Make sure the container can hold about 2 quarts, to avoid overflow.
Stir vigorously to incorporate air; cover with a breathable lid.
Leave in a warm place, 70-85°F, for 12-24 hours. Feeding every 12 hours will increase the rate at which your sourdough starter is multiplying its organisms; feeding every 24 hours will take a bit longer, but may be more sustainable depending on your time commitment.
At the 12 or 24 hour mark you may begin to see some bubbles, indicating that organisms are present. Repeat the feeding with ½ cup warm water and ¾ cup flour.
Stir vigorously, cover, and wait another 12-24 hours.
Repeat feedings every 12-24 hours by removing half of the starter before every feeding and discarding it. Feed with ½ cup warm water and ¾ cup flour.
After about 5-7 days the sourdough starter should have enough yeasts and bacteria to be used for baking.

Don't use chlorinated water. Use either bottled or filtered as the chlorine may kill what you are trying to grow.
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Re: Ultimate sourdough bread

Postby GeoffreyLevens » Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:30 pm

Finally cornered my baker friend and got her "secret" recipe. I edited 1st post to reflect what I learned. Makes more sense than what I have been trying to piece together from random comments and internet searches. My breads have been tasting great but been fairly "dense" because of over rising. The way she does it there is still enough undigested gluten to hold shape better I think. I have not done it yet but her results certainly speak for themselves.

Basically she uses about 50% of total flour to make a "sponge" which is allowed to ferment for 15 hours! Then the rest of the flour is added and after a bit of kneading, proofed as any sourdough i.e. until close to double in size. Then bake
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