kidney stones and a low-oxalate diet

[jeaninLA]

I have recently experienced kidney stones following a round of kidney infections (& lots of high powered antibiotics). I am doing fine now, but my urologist is recommending a low oxalate diet. this is what is recommended for certain kidney stones. (We do not know what kind of kidney stones I have.) I looked up a low oxalate diet and it is the opposite of the McDougall plan! I have been on the McDougall plan for 3 years, have lost 35 pounds and kept it off and am feeling great except these kidney problems. I went on this plan to avoid getting late onset diabetes like my mother and both grandmothers. If I go on a oxalate diet I am throwing all this out the window. I may as well eat at McDonald's! what do I do? My doctor also wants me to take a low daily dose of antibiotics indefinitely to prevent any more kidney infections.

[JeffN]

Greetings

Since you do not know which kind of stones you have, to automatically assume that this program is contra-indicated is not the best approach. In addition, the info that is saying this approach is contra-indicates is not exactly accurate.

What I would recommend you do, is take a few minutes and review this paper on Diet and Kidney Stones, which is also a continuing education course. It is written by a friend and colleague and is a thorough overview of the issue

http://www.foodandhealth.com/cpecourses/kidney.php

As you will see, while there are some items you may want to adjust your intake of, such as calcium, oxalate, protein and salt..... this would not in anyway contradict with the recommendations here.

" a more vegetarian diet that is rich in potassium, magnesium, citrate, fiber and restricted in oxalic acid rich foods and salt coupled with an increased fluid intake should help prevent or at least greatly reduce the recurrences of kidney stones in most patients."

In Health
Jeff

[jeaninLA]

Thank you so much for the article and advice. sounds good to me. This sounds like a good course to follow. As an aside, I read in the article that when people go on a low salt diet, they should be intentional about drinking enough water because their thirst would decrease with lower salt intake - very interesting - I always felt that thirst is a natural way of knowing if I am getting enough water. My doc said that urine should be clear or almost clear and that is a way to know if you are drinking enough water.

Still am trying to decide whether to continue taking a low dose of anitbiotics for life to prevent kidney infections. Don't like the idea, but of course, don't like the idea of kidney infections, either. From the article, I guess I will continue with the potassium citrate. I will ask when I go in why he didn't do blood work to check my potassium, magnesium, and citrate levels.

I think it is important to look at my overall health. I do not have recurring kidney stones - I only had one episode. AND we do not know what kind I have.

thanks again for your post!!!!
Jean

[JeffN]

Your Welcome!

I always felt that thirst is a natural way of knowing if I am
getting enough water.

Usually it is, when of course, you are on a natural diet which of course, would not include a lot of salt.

My doc said that urine should be clear or almost clear and that is a way to know if you are drinking enough water.

This is not a good indicator.

Here is a good discussion on the topic

http://www.drmcdougall.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6149

In Health
Jeff

[jeaninLA]

My comment on the water intake on a low-salt diet (which I have been on with the McDougall plan) is from the article you suggested I read. Here is the quote:

"Because the dangers of excessive salt intake are many and the risk of reducing dietary salt intake are extremely uncommon it seems wise to encourage all patients with a history of kidney stones to reduce their salt intake to no more than 1000 to 1500 mg Sodium daily. The one caveat for patients greatly reducing their salt intake is to encourage them to keep their fluid high because with a low-salt diet thirst will be reduced."

This seems to oppose your view (and my view) of drinking when you are thirsty. Am I reading it wrong?

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[JeffN]

My comment on the water intake on a low-salt diet (which I have been on with the McDougall plan) is from the article you suggested I read. Here is the quote:

"Because the dangers of excessive salt intake are many and the risk of reducing dietary salt intake are extremely uncommon it seems wise to encourage all patients with a history of kidney stones to reduce their salt intake to no more than 1000 to 1500 mg Sodium daily. The one caveat for patients greatly reducing their salt intake is to encourage them to keep their fluid high because with a low-salt diet thirst will be reduced."

This seems to oppose your view (and my view) of drinking when you are thirsty. Am I reading it wrong?

[/url]

Yes.

His comment on maintaining adequate fluid is in response to those who have had recurring kidney stones.

Jay is a good friend & colleague and his motto is "drink when you are thirsty"

In Health,
Jeff

[TominTN]

My doctor also wants me to take a low daily dose of antibiotics indefinitely to prevent any more kidney infections.

Hi, Jean.

I'm sure you've heard about the killer bacterial infections that are starting to crop up as some bacteria become resistant to antibiotics. Here's a link to a wikipedia article on the subject:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methicillin-resistant_Staphylococcus_aureus

Constant use of antibiotics is one of the ways the bacteria "learn" to become resistant. I would be very wary of any recommendation to use antibiotics on a long-term basis.

[JeffN]

The general "rule" used by the outdoor types I used to snowboard and hike with is if you feel thirsty you are already a quart low! .

This is no longer being used amongst many athletes, especially runners, as there have been problems with ove-rhydration, which is discussed in the link I provided.

"For many years, we heard that thirst was not a good indicator of hydration status, especially in athletes, and we were all told to drink lots of fluids and given all kinds of formulas to follow. it turns out that not only may thirst be an adequate indicator, but some of the formulas resulted in over hydration, which caused its own set of problems. Many athletes who were following the advice of these formulas, developed exercise- associated hyponatremia, a condition in which the body's sodium concentration is diluted too much and several died from this. "

In Health
Jeff

[JeffN]

I stand corrected! Though it is true that every time I got to the point of being thirsty I was in dehydration trouble. Moderation in all things. Doubt there is much danger of hypornatremia w/ 4 oz or so of water taken every 30 minutes or so during exercise?

I guess as in all things, moderation is the way to go

Hey GL

The modern saying, "All things in moderation" is taken out of context and IMH(P&P)O is dangerous and basically a rationalization for many to continue their harmful habits.

Here are 2 quotes on moderation.

"To many, total abstinence is easier than perfect moderation."
Author: St. Augustine

"Temperance is moderation in the things that are good and total abstinence from the things that are foul."
Author: Frances E. Willard

If I was to put in context, I would say...

"All "good things" in moderation"



In Health
Jeff