Going Organic

A place to get your questions answered from McDougall staff dietitian, Jeff Novick, MS, RDN.

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Re: Going Organic

Postby Rob » Mon May 17, 2010 8:36 am

Jeff - Thanks for keeping us updated on new studies as they become available about organic versus conventionally produced food.

Have you found any chemical residue studies on individuals who consistently consume the bulk of their diet from organic versus conventionally produced food? This would seem to be a very difficult study to conduct because the mix of food would have to be very similar, personal environmental factors (water, workplace, air, etc.) and age - to name a few important variables - would have to be controlled in the study. The introduction of genetically modified foods into the food chain in 1993 further complicate the issue.
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Re: Going Organic

Postby JeffN » Mon May 17, 2010 8:48 am

Rob wrote:Jeff - Thanks for keeping us updated on new studies as they become available about organic versus conventionally produced food.

Have you found any chemical residue studies on individuals who consistently consume the bulk of their diet from organic versus conventionally produced food? This would seem to be a very difficult study to conduct because the mix of food would have to be very similar, personal environmental factors (water, workplace, air, etc.) and age - to name a few important variables - would have to be controlled in the study. The introduction of genetically modified foods into the food chain in 1993 further complicate the issue.


There was just one done in kids that came out this morning. The problem is they only measured the reside in the urine so the source of the residue was not identified. While we often think "food" as the main source, remember, the air carries pollutants as does the water.

The good news is, water is the easiest to control as we can use make sure we only use highly purified water. Air we can take some measures. Food, we can buy organic, but as this thread points out, what is labeled as certified organic may not be pesticide free and/or even lower pesticide levels. And, they also "cheat" at the Famers Markets so its a tough area. What we can do in regard to food, is wash all of it thoroughly before consuming. And, for the record, those high priced produce washes, have not been shown to do any better than water and elbow grease.

We also know those who consume a mostly plant based diet have lower residues than those who consume mostly animal based diets as the animals concentrate the levels as we go up the food chain.

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Re: Going Organic

Postby JeffN » Mon May 17, 2010 11:16 am

Carroll wrote:Hmmm, I don't know, I'm feeling very suspicious of this conclusion... of course though my biggest concern with conventional is the impact to the farmers, workers in the field and children and families (my dh's whole family has a variety of cancers and talking to others it seems like a common occurrence amongst families that lived near chemically treated farms... in his case it was a rice field), not unlike why I avoid teflon even though it may not make much difference to me directly using teflon pans, so ultimately just looking at how eating a conventional versus organic apple effects me really misses the larger picture, which is much, much more worrisome ultimately, imao... however, I know in talking to various oncologists wrt to treatments and other concerns they have always expressed to me the impact would be on the cells being created in the fetus... in other words, the evidence of greatest impact of cancer causing issues or negative genetic effects would be seen in our grandchildren. The fact that this article just mentions eczema in infants drinking milk makes me suspect they are only looking at very direct immediate impact, which is not generally how these chemicals affect us, except in very extreme amounts (the fact that it is making a difference so obvious and immediate with the eczema to me is especially disconcerting!).

Also, I wonder, did they look into the impact of breast milk in this at all? I know I've seen research not only indicating a significant difference in breast milk contamination eating an organic vs conventional diet (which also makes me wonder about breast cancer in general having that stuff sitting there stored for so many years, but I'm assuming they did look at this, so good to know that's not an issue then) but that the quality of the milk was effected for the worse eating conventional. I do know eating a vegan diet made an even larger difference with contamination (one of the major reasons I'm always trying to encourage women to eat less animal products)... I don't know if there is a similar scenario with better quality milk from organic vegan vs conventional vegan mothers?... however, did they look at this at all, is the impact on babies drinking organic breast milk vs. conventional breast milk included in this?


Carroll

We should always be suspicious of every conclusion. :)

The reason is, the conclusion is meaningless without further understanding of the study and looking to see how it was done, who it was done on, what limitations there were, how they did the analysis, etc etc. Many times, and especially if the research was well done, all of these will be discussed in the study. In addition, further questions can usually be addressed by contacting the authors, whose contact information is always given and many of them actually enjoy responding and finding those who are interested in their research

Sadly, the media never presents this information.

Fortunately, this full text of this study is available online for free (you have to click on the PDF link on the right)..

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/c ... 009-3058v1

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Re: Going Organic

Postby Rob » Mon May 17, 2010 1:44 pm

Jeff - Thanks for the link to the study. It seems to confirm earlier findings from a more limited 2008 Emory University study by Chensheng Lu on organophosphates and children:

Lu and his colleagues monitored twenty-three preschool and elementary school children in Mercer Island, Washington, on their regular family diets during the course of a year. In the summer and fall, the researchers provided the children with an all-organic diet for five consecutive days.

The change was dramatic, Lu says. During the five days on the organic diet, there were no signs of pesticides in the children’s urine.

Unlike other types of pesticides such as DDT, organophosphates have a relatively short half-life, Lu explains, which is why he needed to monitor the children daily to measure their exposure. Because the pesticide degrades quickly, he did not expect such a conclusive result.

“What really surprised us is that the outcome reflects the hypothesis that by switching to organic produce, there would be no exposure to pesticides,” he says. “The study proved that this type of pesticide is only transmitted through diet.”


http://www.emory.edu/EMORY_MAGAZINE/2008/spring/lu.html

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/349263_pesticide30.html

2008 Emory University Study:
http://ehsehplp03.niehs.nih.gov/article ... 2Fehp.8418
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Re: Going Organic

Postby JeffN » Mon May 17, 2010 2:15 pm

Carroll wrote:Thanks for that info Rob.. I was just reading more about this, and yea, I'm perplexed how they were able to possibly conclude that "evidence is lacking for nutrition-related health effects that result from the consumption of organically produced foodstuffs" in that review with studies like the one you pointed to available?


It is because the studies are looking at different things. Go through this thread from the beginning and you will see several controlled studies clearly showing no nutritional difference. Yes, some do. And, some other show reasons why some studies show benefit while other don't (ie, dilution effect). Remember, to this date, the Organic Industry can not make the claim their product is nutritionally superior, and that is in light of all the other claims the other industries make about their products. The reason they can't make the claim is that the evidence, to date, does not support such a claim

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Re: Going Organic

Postby JeffN » Mon May 17, 2010 2:19 pm

Rob wrote:Jeff - Thanks for the link to the study. It seems to confirm earlier findings from a more limited 2008 Emory University study by Chensheng Lu on organophosphates and children:
.

While both studies are interesting, they are two completely different studies.

The one today just looked at residue in the urine of children and found a relationship between the amount of residue and the incidence of ADD. They did not look at source of chemicals, or changing of lifestyle and/or diet in anyway and its effect on residue amount and/or incidence of ADD.

The other study looked at the effect of the residue in urine after changing the diet and did not look at the relationship between the residue and the incidence of any disease. It also only looked at the change in relation to diet.

So, both unrelated studies are very interesting and both studies have severe limitations.

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Re: Going Organic

Postby JeffN » Mon May 17, 2010 2:20 pm

Carroll wrote:Jeff, I was wondering about the conclusion drawn by the systemic review you mentioned above... the link you provided me is just a study on adhd in children


Sorry, I though that was the one you were referring to.

However, my comments in regard to studies remain and the link in my original post takes you to the full text so you can look closer at the study details if you desire.

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Re: Going Organic

Postby JeffN » Tue May 18, 2010 8:34 am

Rob wrote:Jeff - Thanks for the link to the study. It seems to confirm earlier findings from a more limited 2008 Emory University study by Chensheng Lu on organophosphates and children:
.

BTW, I found an interesting follow up to this study...

"Results reported so far boiled down to this: Organophosphate insecticides were not used by any families in their homes, but the children were still exposed through their food except when they switched to organic produce. In the case of pyrethroids, children continued to be exposed, even when organic produce was substituted. Children whose families used pyrethroid insecticides in and around the home had the highest levels of pyrethroids and analysis showed that this home pesticide use was their primary source of exposure. "

So, while changing food was important, our home environment is also important and one we have much better control over. Some of our most toxic chemicals we are exposed to on a daily basis are located under our sinks, in our cleaning cabinet and in our bathrooms. And, for most of these, we are exposed in small rooms with little ventilation.

Just something to think about.

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Re:

Postby ETeSelle » Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:40 pm

JeffN wrote:11) Buying locally grown produce at local farmers markets (or growing it yourself) is probably the best option available in all regards. Even cities like NY have year round open air markets that feature locally grown produce.

Yes. I don't bother w/ organic for all the reasons you state above. I DO go to the farmer's markets whenever I can and buy local produce. It tastes better and it just feels better to do. Much of it IS organic, but I don't really worry about that one way or another.
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Re: Going Organic

Postby JeffN » Sat Jul 17, 2010 10:54 am

These two validate one of my concerns about the potential "negative" influence of organic labeling of packaged processed products.

1) Organic junk food is still junk food!

http://blogs.consumerreports.org/health ... nacks.html

"Why does that word make people think that a food is intrinsically healthy? Yes, I want my foods to be lower in pesticides. And I value the benefits of organic farming for farm workers and the environment. But I should be able to leave that out of the equation when judging whether a food should be a part of my family’s diet. Organic garbage is still garbage."


2) The "organic" path to obesity? Organic claims influence calorie judgments and exercise recommendations. Judgment and Decision Making, Vol. 5, No. 3, June 2010, pp. 144-150

"In a follow-up study, the researchers presented participants with a scenario of a woman trying to lose weight. They were told what the woman had for dinner, then asked if they thought it was okay for her to skip her daily run. People were much more lenient when she had an organic desert than when she had a conventional one. The researchers speculated that the tendency to equate “organic” with “healthy” and “low-calorie” offset the associations usually made with dessert as an indulgence. "

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Re: Going Organic

Postby elgaeb051 » Sun Jul 18, 2010 12:20 pm

I tend to buy organic for the most toxic veges and let it go at that.

Recently, I think it was EWG had blueberries on its list . . . I let it go but now Consumer Report mentioned, in their latest magazine to avoid blueberries and strawberries. I already avoided the strawberries, but I eat a lot of blueberries.

I was disappointed . . . organic fruit is so much more expensive.

While I understand that buying local . . . you probably get more nutrients, etc., it seems to me that one would still purchase the organic form of the most toxic as they can.

Anyway, thank to Jeff and everyone else who has contributed to this thread. I need to go back and reread it.

E
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Re: Going Organic

Postby JeffN » Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:05 am

elgaeb051 wrote:I tend to buy organic for the most toxic veges and let it go at that.

Recently, I think it was EWG had blueberries on its list . . . I let it go but now Consumer Report mentioned, in their latest magazine to avoid blueberries and strawberries. I already avoided the strawberries, but I eat a lot of blueberries.

I was disappointed . . . organic fruit is so much more expensive.

While I understand that buying local . . . you probably get more nutrients, etc., it seems to me that one would still purchase the organic form of the most toxic as they can.

Anyway, thank to Jeff and everyone else who has contributed to this thread. I need to go back and reread it.

E


This thinking, of avoiding the most toxic ones is based on the Dirty Dozen list that is put out on a regular basis by the EWG and similar reviews by organizations like Consumer Reports. However, there is a basic flaw in the results. It assumes equal consumption of all products tested.

In other words, if strawberries were tested and found to have the most residue, lets say "X", and potatoes were found to be in the middle of the list with only half the amount of residue found, lets say "1/2 X", then if you were to eat the exact same amount of strawberries and potatoes each year, then the list would be correct and the strawberries would give you twice the residue so maybe you should consider avoiding them.

But, what if you eat only about 1 pound of strawberries a year but you eat 30 lbs of potatoes? The list no longer applies as you would be getting in 15x the amount of residue from the potatoes, even though they only had half the amount or residue on each sample.

Here is the actual methodology and as you can see, average annual consumption is not considered.

Contamination was measured in 6 different ways:

* Percent of samples tested with detectable pesticides
* Percent of samples with two or more pesticides
* Average number of pesticides found on a single sample
* Average amount (level in parts per million) of all pesticides found
* Maximum number of pesticides found on a single sample
* Total number of pesticides found on the commodity

Here is some examples from their list (50=worst, 1=best)

Lets look at average consumption.

50) Celery 6.2 lbs/yr
49) Peaches 9.05 lbs/yr
48) Strawberries 8.2 lbs/yr
39) Potatoes 117.73 lb/yr
21) Tomatoes 85.75 lb/yr
20) Bananas 25.062 lb/yr
3) Corn 24.3 lbs/yr

Now lets look at "Average amount (level in parts per million) of all pesticides found"

50) Celery 0.316
49) Peaches 1.066
48) Strawberries 0.789
39) Potatoes 1.602
21) Tomatoes 0.033
20) Bananas 0.030
3) Corn 0.004

So, lets do a little math and..

Average amount consumed multiplied by the average amount of pesticide found on each sample equals (=) potential amount of pesticide consumed per person per year.

50) Celery 1.95
49) Peaches 9.64
48) Strawberries 6.46
39) Potatoes 188.6
21) Tomatoes 2.82
20) Bananas .75
3) Corn .09

So, which do you think are the real "Dirty" ones, Celery or Tomatoes? Strawberries or Potatoes?

My math and methods are not perfect, and need more work (so please do not stop eating potatoes), but they do show the flaw in the logic and their system.

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Re: Going Organic

Postby JeffN » Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:13 am

Another review..

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http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/92/1/203

American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, doi:10.3945/ajcn.2010.29269
Vol. 92, No. 1, 203-210, July 2010

Background: There is uncertainty over the nutrition-related benefits to health of consuming organic foods.

Objective: We sought to assess the strength of evidence that nutrition-related health benefits could be attributed to the consumption of foods produced under organic farming methods.

Design: We systematically searched PubMed, ISI Web of Science, CAB Abstracts, and Embase between 1 January 1958 and 15 September 2008 (and updated until 10 March 2010); contacted subject experts; and hand-searched bibliographies. We included peer-reviewed articles with English abstracts if they reported a comparison of health outcomes that resulted from consumption of or exposure to organic compared with conventionally produced foodstuffs.

Results: From a total of 98,727 articles, we identified 12 relevant studies. A variety of different study designs were used; there were 8 reports (67%) of human studies, including 6 clinical trials, 1 cohort study, and 1 cross-sectional study, and 4 reports (33%) of studies in animals or human cell lines or serum. The results of the largest study suggested an association of reported consumption of strictly organic dairy products with a reduced risk of eczema in infants, but the majority of the remaining studies showed no evidence of differences in nutrition-related health outcomes that result from exposure to organic or conventionally produced foodstuffs. Given the paucity of available data, the heterogeneity of study designs used, exposures tested, and health outcomes investigated, no quantitative meta-analysis was justified.

Conclusion: From a systematic review of the currently available published literature, evidence is lacking for nutrition-related health effects that result from the consumption of organically produced foodstuffs.
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Re: Going Organic

Postby GeoffreyLevens » Thu Jul 22, 2010 7:58 pm

Jeff, I am forced to admit that your post above re: Dirty Dozen vs Clean 15 vs organic was a "forehead slapper" for me! Excellent. :oops:
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Re: Going Organic

Postby GeoffreyLevens » Fri Jul 23, 2010 11:07 am

GeoffreyLevens wrote:Jeff, I am forced to admit that your post above re: Dirty Dozen vs Clean 15 vs organic was a "forehead slapper" for me! Excellent. :oops:


Mentioned this to wife and she said, "Duh! I've always thought that." :D
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