12 Hr Window for a healthy weight?

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12 Hr Window for a healthy weight?

Postby Acura » Fri Jan 16, 2015 10:56 am

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/01/1 ... ight/?_r=1

What is you take on this finding Jeff? On the surface makes sense that you need to give digestive system a break for it to do its job. Similar to how fasting has proven to be beneficial.
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Re: 12 Hr Window for a healthy weight?

Postby JeffN » Fri Jan 16, 2015 11:05 am

I would refer you to our old discussion on meal timing...

http://www.drmcdougall.com/forums/viewt ... 22&t=26337

And these on Intermittent Fasting

http://www.drmcdougall.com/forums/viewt ... 22&t=36724

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=36697

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Re: 12 Hr Window for a healthy weight?

Postby Acura » Sat Jan 17, 2015 7:47 pm

Jeff,

I have gone through many of the posts in above threads. I agree that first things first -- we have to get the calorie density principle right. Many people are claiming that they have lost lot of body fat, weight on IF but that doesn't tell you what their starting point was. Anyone who is obese, will lose excess weight if they reduced calorific intake by any of the methods. I'm not sure if they are losing even more weight beyond principle of calorie density after they added IF to CD. Let's say you have got CD principle right , is there any other advantage to IF above and beyond calorie density, eat when you want till reasonably full?

I have listened to Diane Rehm show you posted and 3 researchers had lots of positive things to say about IF beyond weight maintenance ranging from slowing down ageing, better cognitive functions etc.
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Re: 12 Hr Window for a healthy weight?

Postby JeffN » Sat Jan 17, 2015 8:52 pm

Chimichanga wrote: Jeff,

I have gone through many of the posts in above threads. I agree that first things first -- we have to get the calorie density principle right. Many people are claiming that they have lost lot of body fat, weight on IF but that doesn't tell you what their starting point was. Anyone who is obese, will lose excess weight if they reduced calorific intake by any of the methods. I'm not sure if they are losing even more weight beyond principle of calorie density after they added IF to CD.


You raise an important point. All these "benefits" are seen amongst those who are following something like the SAD. This is the main point in my discussion on "high quality food" and the issues of effect size, application, diminishing returns, etc etc

It may be of benefit to review it...

http://www.drmcdougall.com/forums/viewt ... 22&t=28413

If people are reversing disease, regaining health and achieving optimal weight with the principles of CD, Esselstyn, Ornish, McDougall, Kemper, etc, etc then how much more is there to go?

Chimichanga wrote: Let's say you have got CD principle right , is there any other advantage to IF above and beyond calorie density, eat when you want till reasonably full? .


Again, If you have CD and this way of living right and are getting all the benefits, what more do you want?

Granted, some people struggle with getting this right and, as we discussed in your thread on Meal Frequency, these varying approaches may help them for a brief period, but where is the evidence for any degree of l/t success in that?

This is one thing time and experience teaches you. I have observed this for over the last 3 decades and we see it here all the time in these forums. Granted, people struggle with the program. No doubt. It is not easy to do in this world.

So, they try the juicing for a while and that seems to help but only for a brief period and then they are back to where they were. Then they try raw food for a while, then smoothies for a while, then eating only veggies for awhile. and they all seem to work for a while but where is the l/t success?

This is why I say, find those who have been doing this successfully for at least 10 years of more , and see what they are doing.

I would also recommend reviewing these threads, which discuss this whole issue too...

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=42701

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=8179

Chimichanga wrote:I have listened to Diane Rehm show you posted and 3 researchers had lots of positive things to say about IF beyond weight maintenance ranging from slowing down ageing, better cognitive functions etc.


Which are all benefits already associated with this way of living. :)

However, as I said in our prior discussion and in my posts on the topic...

"Bottom line, following the recommendations here to consume a unrefined unprocessed plant based diet that is low in calorie density, high in nutrient density and high in satiety, along with the proper amount and type of physical activity may be the most important issue. Whether someone does this in 3 meals vs 5 meals vs 1 meal, may be less important than total calories and overall food choices, and a fine detail that would be up to the individual based on which method helps them incorporate the more important principles."

"Some people just can't maintain a meal plan with fewer meals and some just can't maintain a meal plan with more frequent meals. I am one of the latter, and so, I keep a more limited meal plan but would not insist on that for someone who felt more comfortable with more frequent meals as long as the overall dietary and nutritional pattern is the same."


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Re: 12 Hr Window for a healthy weight?

Postby Acura » Sun Jan 18, 2015 9:38 am

JeffN wrote:If people are reversing disease, regaining health and achieving optimal weight with the principles of CD, Esselstyn, Ornish, McDougall, Kemper, etc, etc then how much more is there to go?
Jeff


With above WOE I know many people have reversed degenerative diseases, maintained optimal weight etc for long time. I believe I have done it for 8 years, and I don't believe there is a hell lot of efforts and micromanaging that is required.

With 5:2 and other such things, all I know is people lose some weight, compare to what I don't know. What caught my attention is, on non-fasting days, I have seen author Mosley eating cheese, yogurt, beacon etc. The message that is sent out is as long as you eat 600 calories on 2 fasting days a week, then it doesn't matter what you do the rest of the days and that is not the right strategy in my opinion.

I was thinking, if you follow WFPB CD like you teach(not anything you can eat) on non fasting days, and severely restrict calories on 2 fasting days a week, would you dip into glycogen store, reduce body fat even further. The lesser the body fat, the better everything else should get right? Provided, of course this can be sustained over long haul.
Last edited by Acura on Sun Jan 18, 2015 9:51 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 12 Hr Window for a healthy weight?

Postby JeffN » Sun Jan 18, 2015 9:49 am

Chimichanga wrote:With 5:2 and other such things, all I know is people lose some weight, compare to what I don't know. What caught my attention is, on non-fasting days, I have seen author eating cheese, yogurt, beacon etc. The message that is sent out is as long as you eat 600 calories on 2 fasting days a week, then it doesn't matter what you do the rest of the days and that is not the right strategy in my opinion.


I don't think we have very good evidence that you can really get away with that over the long-term and be successful. For one thing, we don't have any such data and another thing, you are leaving people in the pleasure trap, which, as we all know, is a powerful issue.

Then, there is also this in the first linked thread above..

Benefit of a low-fat over high-fat diet on vascular health during alternate day fasting
Nutrition & Diabetes (2013) 3, e71; doi:10.1038/nutd.2013.14
Published online 27 May 2013

Abstract

Background: Alternate day fasting (ADF) with a low-fat (LF) diet improves brachial artery flow-mediated dilation (FMD). Whether these beneficial effects can be reproduced with a high-fat (HF) diet remains unclear.

Objective: This study compared the effects of ADF-HF to ADF-LF regimens on FMD. The role that adipokines have in mediating this effect was also investigated.

Methods: Thirty-two obese subjects were randomized to an ADF-HF (45% fat) or ADF-LF diet (25% fat), consisting of two phases: (1) a 2-week baseline weight maintenance period and (2) an 8-week ADF weight loss period. Food was provided throughout the study.

Results: Body weight was reduced (P<0.0001) in the ADF-HF (4.4±1.0 kg) and ADF-LF group (3.7±0.7 kg). FMD decreased (P<0.05) by ADF-HF relative to baseline (7±1 to 5±2%) and increased (P<0.05) by ADF-LF (5±1 to 7±2%). Blood pressure remained unchanged in both groups. Adiponectin increased (P<0.05) in the ADF-HF (43±7%) and ADF-LF group (51±7%). Leptin and resistin decreased (P<0.05) in the ADF-HF (32±5%; 23±5%) and ADF-LF group (30±3%; 27±4%). Increases in adiponectin were associated with augmented FMD in the ADF-LF group only (r=0.34, P=0.03).

Conclusion: Thus, improvements in FMD with ADF may only occur with LF diets and not with HF diets, and adipokines may not have a significant role in mediating this effect.


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Re: 12 Hr Window for a healthy weight?

Postby JeffN » Sun Jan 18, 2015 10:35 am

PS Remember, set patterns of eating such as 3 squares and/or 3 squares and 2 snacks, are all a modern invention as without modern agriculture, these would have never been possible on a regular basis. Food & meals were always somewhat random based on season & availability and included periods with little or no food.

The "no-breakfast plan," which seems to have become part of IF and these restricted feeding (RF) regimes, is not something new and has been around for a very long time, just like the concept of "true hunger."

For those familiar with Natural Hygiene, many of its leaders advocated the no-breakfast plan going back many years. They may have learned of it from Dr Edmund Dewey, who advocated it back in the late 1800's and his book on it came out around 1900.

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/27128/27 ... 7128-h.htm

Harvey & Marilyn Diamond made Natural Hygiene principles and these restricted eating regimes more accessible to modern culture in their Fit For Life books, by advocating fruit only before noon and to have 1 or 2 days a week of just fruit.

Several of the 7th Day Adventists practitioners advocated a system that reversed it, making breakfast the biggest meal, lunch an medium sized meal and dinner, if consumed, something very light.

So, none of this is anything new. It is just getting some attention including some research attention, which is good.

In the end, remember....

"Bottom line, following the recommendations here to consume a unrefined unprocessed plant based diet that is low in calorie density, high in nutrient density and high in satiety, along with the proper amount and type of physical activity may be the most important issue. Whether someone does this in 3 meals vs 5 meals vs 1 meal, may be less important than total calories and overall food choices, and a fine detail that would be up to the individual based on which method helps them incorporate the more important principles."

"Some people just can't maintain a meal plan with fewer meals and some just can't maintain a meal plan with more frequent meals. I am one of the latter, and so, I keep a more limited meal plan but would not insist on that for someone who felt more comfortable with more frequent meals as long as the overall dietary and nutritional pattern is the same."


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Re: 12 Hr Window for a healthy weight?

Postby JeffN » Tue Jan 27, 2015 10:18 am

JeffN wrote:
Chimichanga wrote:With 5:2 and other such things, all I know is people lose some weight, compare to what I don't know. What caught my attention is, on non-fasting days, I have seen author eating cheese, yogurt, beacon etc. The message that is sent out is as long as you eat 600 calories on 2 fasting days a week, then it doesn't matter what you do the rest of the days and that is not the right strategy in my opinion.


I don't think we have very good evidence that you can really get away with that over the long-term and be successful. For one thing, we don't have any such data and another thing, you are leaving people in the pleasure trap, which, as we all know, is a powerful issue.


Besides the study I listed above, which concluded...

Conclusion: Thus, improvements in FMD with ADF may only occur with LF diets and not with HF diets, and adipokines may not have a significant role in mediating this effect.


... there is also this one, from one of the leading researchers on IF and RF these days...

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=36724&p=431235&p431235

Fasting: Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications
Valter D. Longo and Mark P. Mattson,
Cell Metabolism 19, February 4, 2014

"Notably, the various fasting approaches are likely to have limited efficacy, particularly on aging and conditions other than obesity, unless combined with high-nourishment diets such as the moderate calorie intake and mostly plant-based Mediterranean or Okinawa low-protein diets (0.8 g protein/kg of body weight), consistently associated with health and longevity."



Cell Metabolism
Review
Fasting: Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications
Valter D. Longo1,* and Mark P. Mattson2,3,*

From the study...

"Fasting has been practiced for millennia, but, only recently, studies have shed light on its role in adaptive cellular responses that reduce oxidative damage and inflammation, optimize energy metabolism, and bolster cellular protection. In lower eukaryotes, chronic fasting extends longevity, in part, by reprogramming metabolic and stress resistance pathways. In rodents intermittent or periodic fasting protects against diabetes, cancers, heart disease, and neurodegeneration, while in humans it helps reduce obesity, hypertension, asthma, and rheumatoid arthritis. Thus, fasting has the potential to delay aging and help prevent and treat diseases while minimizing the side effects caused by chronic dietary interventions."

Conclusions and Recommendations

Based on the existing evidence from animal and human studies described, we conclude that there is great potential for lifestyles that incorporate IF or PF during adult life to promote optimal health and reduce the risk of many chronic diseases, particularly for those who are overweight and sedentary. Animal studies have documented robust and replicable effects of fasting on health indicators including greater insulin sensitivity and reduced levels of blood pressure, body fat, IGF-I, insulin, glucose, atherogenic lipids, and inflammation. Fasting regimens can ameliorate disease processes and improve functional outcome in animal models of disorders that include cancer, myocardial infarction, diabetes, stroke, AD, and PD. One general mechanism of action of fasting is that it triggers adaptive cellular stress responses, which result in an enhanced ability to cope with more severe stress and counteract disease processes. In addition, by protecting cells from DNA damage, suppressing cell growth, and enhancing apoptosis of damaged cells, fasting could retard and/or prevent the formation and growth of cancers.

However, studies of fasting regimens have not been performed in children, the very old, and underweight individuals, and it is possible that IF and PF would be harmful to these populations. Fasting periods lasting longer than 24 hr, and particularly those lasting 3 or more days, should be done under the supervision of a physician and preferably in a clinic. IF- and PF-based approaches toward combating the current epidemics of overweight, diabetes, and related diseases should be pursued in human research studies and medical treatment plans. Several variations of potential ‘‘fasting prescriptions’’ that have been adopted for overweight subjects revolve around the common theme of abstaining from food and caloric beverages for at least 12–24 hr on 1 or more days each week or month, depending on the length, combined with regular exercise. For those who are overweight, physicians could ask their patients to choose a fasting-based intervention that they believe they could comply with based upon their daily and weekly schedules. Examples include the ‘‘5:2’’ IF diet (Harvie et al., 2011), the alternate day modified fasting diet (Johnson et al., 2007; Varady et al., 2009), a 4–5 day fast (Lee et al., 2012; Safdie et al., 2009), or low-calorie-but high- nourishment fasting-mimicking diets once every 1–3 months fol- lowed by the skipping of one major meal every day if needed (V.D.L., unpublished data). One of the concerns with unbalanced alternating diets, such as those in which low calorie intake is only observed for 2 days a week, are the potential effects on circadian rhythm and the endocrine and gastrointestinal systems, which are known to be influenced by eating habits. During the first 4–6 weeks of implementation of the fasting regimen, a physician or registered dietitian should be in regular contact with the patient to monitor their progress and to provide advice and super- vision.

Fasting regimens could also be tailored for specific diseases as stand-alone or adjunct therapies. Results of initial trials of IF (fasting 2 days per week or every other day) in human subjects suggest that there is a critical transition period of 3–6 weeks dur- ing which time the brain and body adapt to the new eating pattern and mood is enhanced (Harvie et al., 2011; Johnson et al., 2007). Though speculative, it is likely that during the latter transition period brain neurochemistry changes so that the ‘‘addiction’’ to regular consumption of food throughout the day is overcome. Notably, the various fasting approaches are likely to have limited efficacy, particularly on aging and conditions other than obesity, unless combined with high-nourishment diets such as the moderate calorie intake and mostly plant-based Mediterranean or Okinawa low-protein diets (0.8 g protein/kg of body weight), consistently associated with health and longevity.

In the future, it will be important to combine epidemiological data, studies of long-lived populations and their diets, and results from model organisms connecting specific dietary components to proaging and prodisease factors, with data from clinical studies, to design large clinical studies that integrate fasting with diets recognized as protective and enjoyable. A better under- standing of the molecular mechanisms by which fasting affects various cell types and organ systems should also lead to the development of novel, FDA-approved prophylactic and preventive and therapeutic interventions for a wide range of disorders.

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