How many non-starchy veggies should we eat?

[Spiral]

Jeff,

Over in the lounge we have a discussion regarding how many non-starchy veggies we should eat in order to maintain a healthy weight (and maintain our general well-being too).

How many pounds of non-starchy veggies (a.k.a. leafy green vegetables) should we be eating each day? What do the various Doctors (Esselstyn, Goldhammer, McDougall) have to say about this? And what is your opinion?

Thanks.

[JeffN]

How many pounds of non-starchy veggies (a.k.a. leafy green vegetables) should we be eating each day? What do the various Doctors (Esselstyn, Goldhammer, McDougall) have to say about this? And what is your opinion?

Thanks.

I think the most important issue is that none of us (Dr McDougall, Dr Esselstyn, Dr Goldhamer nor I) who have been referenced in the linked discussion (and I will add in Pritikin) want you or anyone counting, weighing, measuring or portioning any of the recommended food. Not one of us.

While there may be a very rare exception in some isolated cases where a patient may be asked to limit a certain food or get in a certain amount, this is an extremely rare situation, it is usually for a limited and short-term basis and is not a general recommendation. The only exception to this is in regard to higher fat plant foods, which are very high in fat and calorie density, so the recommendation that is given, is given as a limit.

In all other cases, we all want you to follow the general guidelines we teach. While each of the above mentioned programs may give these general guidelines in a slightly differently way, none of us want you counting, weighing, measuring or portioning your food. It goes against the fundamental principle of all the programs mentioned above. If a number is ever given, it is given in a general way as a guidelines and not a rule.

Now, people can debate this all they want, and you may occasionally find someone who has had some success on their own by measuring certain aspects of their food, but this is their personal interpretation, application & experience and is not a recommendation from any of the above programs. As someone who has worked directly and closely, on both a professional and personal level, with all of the above for decades, and has spoken with all of them about this over the weekend (where we all were at a conference) in direct reference to the linked thread, I can say this unequivocally.

We see many examples where people in the WFPB movement get very excited and enthusiastic about their personal success and want to share it with everyone, and may often even write a book on it. However, we also often see the very same people changing their program and their recommendations in 3, 6 or 12 months because their success and enthusiasm was only short lived. Then they have to write another book. Every now and then you find one who has made a year or two (or three) and then crash. Look how many diets and modifications have come and gone over the years. However, the principles of healthy eating have stood the test of time. This is why looking for someone who has 10-20 years of proven success is so important.

We see it in this very forum. Someone posts about how they have finally found the answer, because they are now following "X's" recommendation to do "Y" and "Z", and it is working for them, and what do I think. My answer is always, I am happy for them, but my recommendation is to follow the basic principles and guidelines. Then, 6 months later, they are posting how they were unable to follow the recommendations of "X" to do "Y and Z" over time, as it was unrealistic, or while it was great in the short term, it did not work for them in the long term. So, they are back to the basic principles and guidelines.

About 2 years ago, someone, who was running a well known WFPB program and had written a book, found themselves in a situation where all their numbers were getting much worse and they were very worried about their health (even though they may have "looked" great). They eventually went to the above mentioned doctors (and me) to figure out what went wrong and we helped them get all their numbers in line and their health back. So, they wrote a new book with an opening saying that everything they wrote in their first book was wrong and actually ended up hurting them. Their new book still had many errors in it, my guess is they will write a 3rd book eventually and correct those errors.

While in some ways this is funny, in more ways it is really very sad. Why not just go directly to the sources (McDougall, etc) and get the information directly from those who have studied the literature, have been running successful programs for decades with 10's of 1000's of patients in residential settings and have published results? While there are many opinions out there, few, if any, even in the WFPB world, have the decades of residential clinical experience of McDougall, Goldhamer, Pritikin & me.

Remember, the principles we teach have stood the test of time. The McDougall Program (Regular & the Maximum Weight Loss Program), The TrueNorth Program (Standard and Gentle), my Calorie Density principles (including the Fine Tuning) and the Pritikin Program (reversal and maintenance), have all been taught for over 3 decades and are all based on the same over-riding general guidelines and principles, which have not changed over the years (except for some very minor modifications on occasion).

(NOTE: In the near future, I am releasing the "Continuum of Health," a comprehensive, integrated system that unifies the principles and guidelines of all these programs into one set of overriding recommendations. I have spent the last 5 years working closely with all the above mentioned doctors, along with most all the other leading health care professionals in the WFPB movement in developing it)

Remember, this is about long-term success and not temporary measures that may have produced short-term success for someone. All of the us have spent several decades teaching these guidelines to 10's of 1000's of patients and our recommendations are based on what works best to produce long-term success. We all know we can implement changes for how the program is followed short-term to produce greater results, but we don't, because we are all trying to help people to be successful, not only today, and not only in a year, but also in 10 years.

That is what is most important. That is one of the beauties of these programs. They free you from all the weighing, measuring, counting etc.

Follow the basic guidelines and principles as recommended and, please, do not worry about counting, weighing and measuring your intake of the recommended (not limited) foods.

In Health
Jeff

[JeffN]

Let's take a closer look.

First, from Dr McDougall...

Dr McDougall's Maximum Weight Loss Program

http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2005nl/ ... ushing.htm

Eat Green and Yellow Vegetables:

Typically “popular diets” recommend that you eat large amounts of green and yellow vegetables, which are very low in calories, thus filling your stomach with low energy bulk (they are high in nutrients, however). I suggest about one-third of the meal should be from these low-calorie vegetables for accelerating weight loss. If you are desperate, then you may push that amount to one-half of your plate (measured roughly by your eye).

However, be careful that you do not eat so many of these low-calorie vegetable foods that your meals are no longer enjoyable and satisfying for your hunger drive. You need the starchy selections for sustaining satisfaction. No population of people has ever lived on a diet based on low-calorie green and yellow vegetables. All successful societies have centered their diets on starches (rice, potatoes, beans, corn, etc.) – and you must do the same for long-term victory.

Program Protocol: At our live-in program, the dining room serving tables look like this:

Begin with leafy green salads and bowl of shredded carrots, beets, celery, onions, and cabbage as options to top your salad.

Then, choose any of 4 distinctly different flavorful, fat-free salad dressings which are set on the serving table. For example, Oriental, Berry Vinaigrette, and Tofu Island.

Next take generous helpings two raw vegetable salads, like fat-free Coleslaw, Tomato Vegetable Salad, and Spinach Salad.

Then you come to two hot steamed green and/or yellow vegetable dishes are served, like seasoned steamed carrots, zucchini, kale, baby bok choy, or broccoli. Our guests were asked to eat full servings of these very low calorie dishes before moving on to the starches.

At every lunch and dinner take a bowl full of delicious soup based on beans and/or vegetables. Popular examples included Black Bean, Broccoli, Sweet Potato, and White Bean.

Finally, finish off your meal with the starchy entree (like Shepherd's Pie, Mexican meal, or Stuffed Green Peppers) and you will find yourself fully satisfied until the next meal, (sometimes coming only 2 hours later as a hearty snack).


[NOTE: At the 10-Day programs, when Dr McDougall teaches his class on the MWL program, he always comments that while he does set up the buffet as indicated, he often wants to reverse the order of the buffet because he sees too many people fill up too much on the salads and non starchy veggies and and so they do not get in enough of the starches. He also adds that he knows, he can increase short term success in weight loss by increasing the amount of vegetables and salads but it will not increase long term success. JSN)

Dr McDougall's says the same thing in his comments on this board...

viewtopic.php?p=212124#p212124

I have made that same conclusion and have often threatened to reverse the order on the buffet table so that people eat their salad last like I hear they do in Europe.

I teach the Maximum Weight Loss Program (an approach which emphasizes green and yellow vegetables) less enthusiastically than before because people do not do well in short and long term without the starch.

Short term they don't like the food as well, are hungry between meals, and have intestinal distress (gas and pain and upper acid indigestion).

Long term, without satisfaction delivered by starches, compliance falls off.

I believe in a starch-based diet -- green and yellow vegetables and salads are side dished.

JohnMcDougall, MD

My recommendations -

Jeff Novick's Principles of Calorie Density & The Healthy Eating Placemat

http://www.drmcdougall.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=22

2) Sequence Your Meals - Start all meals with a salad, soup and/or fruit.

4) Dilution is the Solution (the 50/50 guideline) - Dilute Out High Calorie Dense Foods/Meals - Dilute the calorie density of your meals by filling 1/2 your plate (by visual volume) with intact whole grains, tubers, starchy vegetables and/or legumes and the other half with vegetables and/or fruit.

If you look at my calorie density chart, you will also see that as the arrow moves to the left, it goes from green to yellow and then orange because when people focus too much on the lower calorie dense vegetables, they risk two things, 1) they do not get in enough calories and/or 2) they do not get enough satiety.


From Dr. Alan Goldhamer, Director of True North

From my recent discussions with Dr Goldhamer on the topic. I asked Dr Goldhamer to respond to this question, "Outside of the nuts, do you have any specific recommendations on weights, ounces, servings, cups, etc?"

"By using whole foods we do not find that this is an issue except for a few eating disordered individuals and we plate their foods for them. We also limit the eating window to from 8:30 am to 5 p.m. We discourage eating between meals and encourage them to eat slowly and fully during each meal. We monitor their weight daily and give guidance is progress is too slow. We encourage eating the salad then steamed THEN the more concentrated foods and this seems to work. I eat with the patients and give guidance if needed but really not an issue on this diet with our patients. Not to limit anything. Once the pleasure trap is eliminated, portion issues are not that much of an issue."

In response to my asking him to clarify the issue of the amount of non-starchy vegetables...

"we typically are normally getting people to focus on just eating whole food and not on measuring it etc. For most this works well. If someone is eating vegan SOS-free and not achieving their health goals or weight goals we will individually quantify their individual intake but that is rare."


Some additional comments of mine on weighing, measuring, counting and portioning food. Remember, those mentioned above have been implementing these guidelines successfully for several decades without asking anyone to measure, weigh, count or portion their food. We have only taught to use the guidelines and recommendations as visual guides, adjusting where necessary, to help achieve long-term success.

http://www.drmcdougall.com/forums/viewt ... =22&t=9962

"if you are consuming the right foods and are aware of calorie density, then you do not have to count calories as it will become virtually impossible to overeat on any of the recommend foods for MWL. Calorie counting takes us back to methods that do not work. Counting calories leads to portion control, which eventually leads us to hunger, which eventually leads us to overeating, which eventually leads us to failed attempts at dieting. Calorie density has worked in every study to date without any calorie counting or portion control.

If you have to limit the serving/portion of a food (or count its calories) than it is a food that is not recommended on the MWL.

If someone is not losing weight, it is almost always because of the bigger picture issues and counting calories can not fix the bigger picture issues.

If you follow the principles and guidelines of the MWL. program, you will lose weight. If you are following the guidelines and principles of the MWL and are not losing as fast as you like and you understand the principles and the bigger picture than you can make a slight shift in the overall calorie density of your intake and speed up the process.

As mentioned, many people may interpret these guidelines differently and different people will have varying levels of success with different variations. What we need to do, is to keep it simple and find what works not only in producing short term results, but also in producing long term, success.

http://www.drmcdougall.com/forums/viewt ... 51#p439044

In Health
Jeff

[JeffN]

As mentioned, many people may interpret these guidelines differently and different people will have varying levels of success with different variations. What we need to do, is to keep it simple and find what works not only in producing short term results, but also in producing long term, success.

http://www.drmcdougall.com/forums/viewt ... 51#p439044

In Health
Jeff

Speaking of long term success, from one of our very long time Star McDougallers who lost a tremendous amount of weight.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=44635&p=460454#p460454

I used to worry that I was eating too much starch. Then I was diagnosed with EE and had to go on the elimination diet - which is about as pure of a starch-based diet as you can get. I ate a TON of starch and cooked vegetables - and my weight dropped like a rock off a cliff. I got scary thin for a while. What I think happened, is that is that it wasn't the starch that made me struggle with my weight - it was all the condiments I was used to using. A little maple syrup here, some salsa and ketchup there, a bit of chutney, some homemade salad dressing, a little honey in my tea - it all added up. But forced onto a diet of unlimited amounts of plain, unprocessed brown rice, sweet potatoes, winter squash and a few cooked non-starchy fruits and vegetables...well, it really made me see that my ideas about "fattening" starches were wrong. It's not the starches, it's what you do with them. Sometimes it's better to have a meal of a plain old baked potato and a side of broccoli and get on with your life than fuss with an elaborate calorie-dense recipe - particularly when traveling. The cortisol generated from the stress of travel and family makes it easy enough to gain weight as it is!

Kate