Eating Between Meals & Meal Frequency

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Re: Eating Between Meals

Postby Acura » Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:54 pm

JeffN wrote:I saw this post in the other forum and was wondering if you would give us an update on your experience with eating between meals and with the concept of true hunger.

Chimichanga wrote: Isn't he also very big on no snacks between the meals? Go in a catabolic before eating a meal? that means you have to be little bit hungry to eat? I followed this faithfully for about 2 months, after that It became difficult to not eat anything between the meals, watch for true hunger.


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Jeff,

I was thinking about posting an update here and then slipped out of mind.
Anyway here is the synopsis

Almost 5 yrs ago, I had been largely vegetarian and weighed 225 lbs(5'10" height), Came across Dr McD, Yourself, Dr Esselstyn, Dr Ornish and went on whole foods plant based diet and came down to 165 and then went back up a little to 172 lbs. I had maintained this for 4 yrs. Last November I heard Dr Fuhrman's conference calls and joined his forum, I followed his program for few months, increased greens, beans, added an ounce of nuts and seeds, no snacking. I came down to 158 -156 lbs in two months.

That was shocking to me as I was happy with 168 lbs avg and thought I couldn't do more. I thought I had hit the rock.

I could not keep with no snacking between meals, watch for true hunger etc so I'm kind of back to what I had been doing except drawing in little more greens, beans and fruits and I have been maintaining about the same weight i.e. 156-157 lbs.

Bottom line, if I can maintain the same weight without watching for true hunger and no snacking between the meals then I have to say that it wasn't the factor but like you say it is the calorie density that is stupid !!

If you have any questions let me know.
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Re: Eating Between Meals

Postby JeffN » Mon Jun 11, 2012 7:44 am

Thanks.

I appreciate the update.

As I said earlier....

"Some people just can't maintain a meal plan with fewer meals and some just can't maintain a meal plan with more frequent meals. I am one of the latter, and so, I keep a more limited meal plan but would not insist on that for someone who felt more comfortable with more frequent meals as long as the overall dietary and nutritional pattern is the same."

And, of course, as long as you are getting the results you want.

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Re: Eating Between Meals

Postby RawDad » Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:29 pm

I am currently on a water fast... and just had to add something here....

For years I have eaten more lightly during the day - and more heavily for dinner.

If I skip breakfast... I get a feeling similar to what I have felt on this fast... there seems to be a benefit in extending the daily fast...or easing the digestive burden.

Other than the CR data ... I am not sure there is any science behind this. They do know that intermittent fasting does extend life.. but am not sure at all if it differs from just eating less.
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Re: Eating Between Meals

Postby JeffN » Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:48 pm

RawDad wrote:Other than the CR data ... I am not sure there is any science behind this. They do know that intermittent fasting does extend life.. but am not sure at all if it differs from just eating less.


No difference as the only proven benefit to intermittent fasting is as an alternative method of reducing total calories which just gets us back to CR.

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Re: Eating Between Meals

Postby Acura » Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:34 am

JeffN wrote:
RawDad wrote:Other than the CR data ... I am not sure there is any science behind this. They do know that intermittent fasting does extend life.. but am not sure at all if it differs from just eating less.


No difference as the only proven benefit to intermittent fasting is as an alternative method of reducing total calories which just gets us back to CR.

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I have done "no snacks between the meals" for two months. I don't do that anymore. It's been two months and I haven't noticed any significant differences. In few more months, if it is still status quo, I think I will say at that point, there is no benefit to be had from nuances such as when you eat etc other than overall CR.

If you have a certain goal in your mind as to where you want to be BMI wise, you have to match the calorie intake accordingly without going hungry. How one does this will vary somewhat from person to person.
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Re: Eating Between Meals

Postby Katydid » Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:09 pm

I posted this under a different topic. It represents my own personal experience in experimenting with in-between meal snacking, fasting and CR. This is what was successful for me. It doesn't represent the opinion of Dr. McDougall or of Jeff.

I decided last year that in-between meal snacking was keeping my weight up. It wasn't enough to exchange a 'bad' snack for a 'good' one. For example, salted pretzels for baby carrots. Eating between meals kept me 'primed' to eat around the clock. When I was out of 'good' snacks I still felt I HAD to eat, so I would eat what was available, so long as it was vegan. Even if it meant stopping at a gas station or Taco Bell and eating in the car

So I stopped eating between meals. I got in touch with what Dr. Fuhrman calls my 'true hunger' and learned to accept that being hungry between meals was not a bad thing.

Now I three meals a day. If I decide to go for a walk at lunch or stop at the local park after work, I can delay my lunch or dinner by several hours without devouring everything in sight when I get home. On most Sundays, I'll fast for 24 to 36 hours as a kind of 'zen' exercise and to give my damaged esophagus a rest (but that's another story).

I finally feel in absolute control of my eating. I can go to parties and corporate functions, and if there is no approved food - I don't eat while I'm there and I don't sulk...AND I lost the extra 30 pounds that had been clinging to me for years. What I thought was my set-point weight (155 pounds, BMI 24.5, size 10) wasn't even close. My current weight is 125 pound, BMI 19, size 6.

So for me, substitution wasn't enough - I had to completely break my snack-attack habit.

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Last edited by Katydid on Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Eating Between Meals

Postby JeffN » Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:38 pm

Thanks for sharing your experience and I am glad you have found something that works for you.

As I have now said several times in this thread..

"Some people just can't maintain a meal plan with fewer meals and some just can't maintain a meal plan with more frequent meals. I am one of the latter, and so, I keep a more limited meal plan but would not insist on that for someone who felt more comfortable with more frequent meals as long as the overall dietary and nutritional pattern is the same."

Some key points...

The concept you are discussing of "true hunger" is not new and has been around for a very long time. You can see the whole history of it earlier in this thread.

Also, as mentioned earlier, if the concept of "true hunger" is true :), eating a set number of meals and/or at the same time each day is a contradiction to the very concept of true hunger. Hunger does not work by the clock. You can train yourself to eat only at certain times, and you will neuro-adapt accordingly, but that is not true hunger.

Eating a set number of times a day and/or at a certain time each day, is a controlled eating pattern, which, as discussed in this thread, can be very helpful to many on the path.

For most people, following such a controlled eating pattern, which includes the elimination of snacks and eating between meals (conscious or not) will result in a reduction in calories and a loss of weight.

For many, it helps them deal with the "toxic food environment" we live in, which does exist and has a very powerful influence on people and the amount they eat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_food_environment

Set points do not exist as a biological mechanism. However, our weight is the result of our maintaining an environment and a certain set of behaviors (diet, activity, etc) in a "zone" that we are (or have become) most comfortable with.

viewtopic.php?t=9808

Again, thanks and glad the you have found something that works for you.

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Re: Eating Between Meals

Postby Acura » Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:41 am

Katydid wrote:I finally feel in absolute control of my eating. I can go to parties and corporate functions, and if there is no approved food - I don't eat while I'm there and I don't sulk...AND I lost the extra 30 pounds that had been clinging to me for years. What I thought was my set-point weight (155 pounds, BMI 24.5, size 10) wasn't even close. My current weight is 125 pound, BMI 19, size 6.

So for me, substitution wasn't enough - I had to completely break my snack-attack habit.

Kate


I can testify to this, I was doing no snacks in between the meals deal during last Nov-Dec-Jan time frame, I would go around and look at cookies and candies(all the stuff you find around Christmas and New Year) but wouldn't touch them. I just didn't have the will to continue. If I stayed put for little longer may be it would have become my second nature. I like that absolute control feeling, as then you can go without food 5-6 hrs. If you are out of town, working on project etc you are not worrying about food so much.
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Re: Eating Between Meals

Postby JeffN » Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:12 am

Chimichanga wrote:I just didn't have the will to continue.


You and probably about 80% or more of humans. Remember, about 70% of Americans are overweight and/or obese. Of the remaining 30%, avoid being classified as overweight and/or obese through disordered eating and/or disordered exercise which may make up another ~5-10%. So, clearly, about 80% of humans can't do it.

Success in not about will power and if it is, we are all doomed. :)

Few people have as clear an insight into human nature as our own Dr Lisle. Check out his recent article, "Does Willpower Hold the Key to Your Success?"

http://www.forksoverknives.com/author/douglisle/

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Re: Eating Between Meals

Postby NickS » Wed Jul 11, 2012 7:12 pm

Hi Jeff,

I saw an old thread on here, I think it was titled "How Many Meals" or something similar. You seemed to be coming from a point of view that reduced meal frequency carried some possible benefits outside of CR (or when calories are kept equal). Has something changed since then to change your point of view?

Here is the thread:

viewtopic.php?t=10304

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Re: Eating Between Meals

Postby JeffN » Wed Jul 11, 2012 7:18 pm

My position remains as stated in that thread & this thread

From the older thread...

"Bottom line, following the recommendations here to consume a unrefined unprocessed plant based diet that is low in calorie density, high in nutrient density and high in satiety, along with the proper amount and type of physical activity may be the most important issue. Whether someone does this in 3 meals vs 5 meals vs 1 meal, may be less important than total calories and overall food choices, and a fine detail that would be up to the individual based on which method helps them incorporate the more important principles."

From this thread...

"Some people just can't maintain a meal plan with fewer meals and some just can't maintain a meal plan with more frequent meals. I am one of the latter, and so, I keep a more limited meal plan but would not insist on that for someone who felt more comfortable with more frequent meals as long as the overall dietary and nutritional pattern is the same."



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Re: Eating Between Meals

Postby Acura » Sun Jul 15, 2012 8:55 am

Jeff,

I can see why some people are getting confused. The below post of your's does give an impression that fewer meals may offer additional benefits outside CR.

JeffN wrote:
SactoBob wrote:Jeff,
I was wondering if there is any evidence as to whether the traditional three meals per day is better than, for example, one or two meals per day. Also, if you are not hungry and wanting to lose weight, is there any drawback to skipping a meal (assuming that you don't overdo on the next meal)?


Hi Bob,

While you often here of the advantages of several small meals over less larger meals, as long as total calories are restricted, there is not really a big difference and some recent studies in animals have shown that less frequent meals may have some advantages. There are studies being done where the animal are fed every other day (EOD) or once a day.

Years ago, they said it helped lower cholesterol levels, triglycerides, blood sugar, insulin, etc, however, most science organizations will no longer make these claims, as there was little if any evidence to support them.

The claims that eating frequently keeps your metabolism raised is false as the increase in metabolism to digest food is only around 10% of the total calories ingested. So if you consume 300 calories, you may "burn" 30 more than if you did not consume anything, but you end up with a net gain of 270 calories. Taking in a net 270 calories to raise your metabolism by 30 calories, would not be beneficial in regard to energy balance.

One of the problems with eating less frequent meals is we live in a society where food is inexpensive, calorie dense and everywhere, so skipping meals and saying "no" to the food around us, can be difficult. In addition, some people find if they eat less often, they have trouble controlling the amounts they eat when they do eat. So, in today's unhealthy culture, there may be some psycho(social)logical advantage to frequent small meals of health foods. For many, this may be the most important issue as they may find small frequent meals gives them better "control". Remember, many people see this lifestyle as one that takes a lot of discipline and effort. To then add in reducing meal frequency, is to add in more discipline and effort.

However, Seventh Day Adventists, who have the longest lifespan in the US, follow a recommendation of 2 meals per day. Studies on those who limit meal intake during Ramadan, have shown no adverse effects and some possible benefits to weight and risk factors for heart disease and diabetes. The effects of Ramadan "fasting", is well studies, even in children and pregnant women.

Br J Nutr. 2008 Jul;100(1):147-51. Epub 2007 Dec 6.Effect of Ramadan fasting on some indices of insulin resistance and components of the metabolic syndrome in healthy male adults. PMID: 18053308

In conclusion, the present study showed that the combined change in the number and timing of meals and portioning of the entire intake into only two meals per d may increase insulin sensitivity in subjects with the metabolic syndrome even when the decrease in energy consumption is minimal.


Pak J Biol Sci. 2007 Mar 15;10(6):968-71.Effects of fasting and a medium calorie balanced diet during the holy month Ramadan on weight, BMI and some blood parameters of overweight males. PMID: 19069900

Fasting resulted in significant (p<0.05) decreases in the mean values of both, weight and the BMI. Similarly, the mean values of glucose and cholesterol were significantly decreased in subjects after Ramadan, although none of these decreases reached to a level with pathological significance. Conversely, no significant changes in serum levels of triglyceride were noted.


J Egypt Public Health Assoc. 2004;79(5-6):461-83. Ramadan fasting: relation to atherogenic risk among obese Muslims. PMID: 17265611

The study showed that by the end of Ramadan fasting, there was a significant improvement in the mean levels of hemoglobin (Hb), TC, TG, HDL-c, LDL-c, TC/HDL, LDL/HDL, Lp (a), APA, APB, PT and systolic (SBP) and diastolic blood pressure (DBP) that persisted for four weeks after fasting (P < 0.05). Ramadan fasting has not adversely affected leucocytic count or coagulation parameters (P > 0.05). There was also a significant association between dietary intake, SBP, DBP, weight, BMI, percent body fat and waist, fibrinogen and factor VII activity and TC, TG, HDL-c, LDL-c, LDL/HDL, Lp (a) and APB (P < 0.05). The model of Ramadan fasting could be followed as a behavior modification program to control or prevent atherogenicity because of its positive impact on the lipid pattern, blood count and coagulation parameters.


Reducing meal frequency has been show to beneficial to the brain and heartMattson MP, Duan W, Guo Z.
Meal size and frequency affect neuronal plasticity and vulnerability
to disease: cellular and molecular mechanisms.
J Neurochem. 2003 Feb;84(3):417-31. Review.
PMID: 12558961


Another article..


http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20030607/food.asp

And as I mentioned earlier, total calories may be the key issue here..

Carlson O, Martin B, Stote KS, Golden E, Maudsley S, Najjar SS, Ferrucci L,
Ingram DK, Longo DL, Rumpler WV, Baer DJ, Egan J, Mattson MP.
Impact of reduced meal frequency without caloric restriction on glucose
regulation in healthy, normal-weight middle-aged men and women.
Metabolism. 2007 Dec;56(12):1729-34.
PMID: 17998028

"Collectively, the available data therefore suggest that meal skipping or intermittent CR diets can result in health benefits including improved glucose regulation,[b] but only if there is an overall reduction in energy intake."[/b]
Lastly, what may be one of the best discussions on the topic in the literature as of right now...

"Indeed, no clear evidence shows that the skipping of breakfast or lunch (or both) is unhealthy, and animal data suggest quite the opposite. "

Excerpts from...

The need for controlled studies of the effects of meal frequency on health
Mark P Mattson
Lancet 365 (9475) 1978-1980
2005

Only until relatively recently in human evolution have we eaten three meals (plus snacks) every day. Our ancestors consumed food much less frequently, and often had to subsist on one large meal per day or go for several days at a time without food.1 and 2 Thus, from an evolutionary perspective, human beings were adapted to intermittent feeding rather than to grazing. Although eating three or more meals every day can promote rapid growth and sexual maturation in children, it might not be the healthiest dietary pattern for adults. Indeed, the rising tide of obesity
in many developed countries occurs among individuals who consume several large meals per day. Overeating is now widely accepted as a major cause of premature death from cardiovascular disease, diabetes, and cancers,3 but surprisingly, few studies have determined how meal frequency affects health and disease risk. Nevertheless, individuals in the health-care professions and in the lay press have repeatedly stated that consumption of smaller and more frequent meals is healthier than that of larger and less frequent meals. This advice is given despite the lack of clear scientific evidence to justify it.

Studies that have attempted to determine the effects of meal frequency on health have resulted in mixed conclusions. For example, an early survey study4 suggested an association between reduced meal frequency and risk factors for diabetes and cardiovascular disease (obesity, hypercholesterolaemia, and glucose intolerance). In another study,5 healthy men ate either three meals or 17 small snacks every day. After 2 weeks on these diets, participants on the snacking diet had reduced fasting total cholesterol, LDL cholesterol, and insulin concentrations, whereas blood glucose and insulin responses to a glucose challenge test did not differ. Some studies6 have shown that the omission of breakfast is unhealthy, whereas others have shown that this omission can reduce risk factors for
cardiovascular disease and diabetes, including elevations in concentrations of triglycerides, insulin, and glucose.7

Different populations of people practice intermittent fasting worldwide, usually as part of their religion. For example, during the period of Ramadan, which lasts 1 month, Muslims do not eat during the day and typically consume most of their food in the evening. Analyses of blood from people before, during, and after Ramadan have revealed several effects of this meal-skipping diet on indicators of health and disease risk, including increased HDL cholesterol and decreased LDL cholesterol concentrations8 and lowered platelet aggregation,9 suggesting a reduced risk of cardiovascular disease.

Unfortunately, the variable designs and mixed outcomes of past studies of meal frequency and health in people have resulted in questionable and unclear conclusions. In most instances, these studies were done over a
short period, their sample sizes were very small (eg, Jenkins and colleagues5 had seven participants in their study), and variables such as initial calorie intake and exercise were not taken into account. Epidemiological studies were confounded by various socioeconomic and behavioural risk factors, and relied on self-reporting of food intake.

The beneficial effects of diets with reduced meal frequency in rodents, which are striking and highly reproducible, beg the question of whether similar benefits might be achieved in human beings. Some aspects of studies of dietary restriction in laboratory animals introduce at least some uncertainty as to whether reduced calorie and meal-skipping diets will benefit people who already have a normal or low body-mass index. In most studies of rats and mice, controls are usually fed ad libitum, get little exercise, and are therefore overweight. Thus, whether meal-skipping diets will have physiological effects in people across a spectrum of bodyweights that are closely similar to those documented in rodents needs to be established.

The fact that such a fundamental aspect of our dietary habits, the number of meals we eat every day, has not yet been subject to rigorous scientific investigation is remarkable. Until the time that clear results are obtained in well controlled studies, specific recommendations concerning meal frequency and health are inappropriate to make. Indeed, no clear evidence shows that the skipping of breakfast or lunch (or both) is unhealthy, and animal data suggest quite the opposite.

Bottom line, following the recommendations here to consume a unrefined unprocessed plant based diet that is low in calorie density, high in nutrient density and high in satiety, along with the proper amount and type of physical activity may be the most important issue. Whether someone does this in 3 meals vs 5 meals vs 1 meal, may be less important than total calories and overall food choices, and a fine detail that would be up to the individual based on which method helps them incorporate the more important principles.

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Re: Eating Between Meals

Postby JeffN » Sun Jul 15, 2012 9:22 am

Let us put this in proper perspective.

That was an older post, discussing previous articles that mentioned that at one time, "they" thought there may have been some benefit to it but my conclusion is the same there in that thread as it is here in this thread.

"some recent studies in animals have shown that less frequent meals may have some advantages."

However, as I said in the same exact post...

"Collectively, the available data therefore suggest that meal skipping or intermittent CR diets can result in health benefits including improved glucose regulation, but only if there is an overall reduction in energy intake."

And,

"..as I mentioned earlier, total calories may be the key issue here.."

The last article I discussed in that post is just a discussion by one of the CR researchers and is not a study but his opinion and he says and is discussing animal research...

"Until the time that clear results are obtained in well controlled studies, specific recommendations concerning meal frequency and health are inappropriate to make. Indeed, no clear evidence shows that the skipping of breakfast or lunch (or both) is unhealthy, and animal data suggest quite the opposite. "

And my conclusion of the post you copied is...

"Bottom line, following the recommendations here to consume a unrefined unprocessed plant based diet that is low in calorie density, high in nutrient density and high in satiety, along with the proper amount and type of physical activity may be the most important issue. Whether someone does this in 3 meals vs 5 meals vs 1 meal, may be less important than total calories and overall food choices, and a fine detail that would be up to the individual based on which method helps them incorporate the more important principles."

Which is the exact same thing I have said throughout this thread.

Thanks for helping to clarify this.

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Re: Eating Between Meals

Postby Acura » Sun Jul 15, 2012 11:31 am

JeffN wrote:Those were older articles that as my newer posts show have not proven out

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Thanks, on this plan you don't have too many meals to begin with any way.Lot of us can live with a breakfast and 2 meals with 2 snacks in between and snacking is also done on healthy foods such as potato, corn, fruits. So there is no huge deviation to start with. It just that it is not as tight as 2 meals+ breakfast per day and nothing else except water in between. You think that level of precision does not offer any additional benefits. What matters most is fewer calories while eating whole foods close to natural state. That's more important than the frequency.
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Re: Eating Between Meals

Postby JeffN » Mon Jul 16, 2012 1:14 pm

Chimichanga wrote:Thanks, on this plan you don't have too many meals to begin with any way.Lot of us can live with a breakfast and 2 meals with 2 snacks in between and snacking is also done on healthy foods such as potato, corn, fruits. So there is no huge deviation to start with. It just that it is not as tight as 2 meals+ breakfast per day and nothing else except water in between. You think that level of precision does not offer any additional benefits. What matters most is fewer calories while eating whole foods close to natural state. That's more important than the frequency.


Correct 100%. We are really splitting very fine hairs here and I think some people focus on these minor splitting of hairs as a point of differentiation which has more to do with marketing than science.

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