Your Opinions on the 80/10/10 diet

A place to get your questions answered from McDougall staff dietitian, Jeff Novick, MS, RDN.

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Postby jmygann » Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:32 pm

What to eat on the 80-10-10 diet if you want to eat locally ?

In USA ?

In Winter ??

2000 + calories/day or 14,000+/week

200 of those daily calories come from fat

which fats ?

How much fat in corn and beans ?

Soaked/Germinated corn ?

from the link on the previous post ...

"some estimates are that corn comprised 60-65% of the diet."

http://www.olivetreegenealogy.com/moh/food.shtml
Last edited by jmygann on Thu Aug 27, 2009 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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8-1-1 locally impossible?

Postby mortimerlightwood » Thu Aug 27, 2009 6:04 am

I've had a chance to check out some of the farmer's baskets that are available over the winter, some include acorns (processed), sunflower and pumpkin seeds. The grain selection is really amazing - I'm learning to love buckwheat in all its many forms and have I mentioned wild rice? Eating locally on McDougall is really quite easy even up here in Canada ( I think I'm going to start canning my own veggies for the winter). Graham...not so much.
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Postby Mober » Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:48 am

Are you sure you're really eating local? And its a better delivery of food to you?

There is data that shows the carbon footprint required to ship goods via boat to Chicago can be a third of the footprint of trucking it from the bay area for example. One article I saw showed it's a better footprint to buy your wine from Australia than Napa! Unless you are getting it really local and Zeke's pickup truck's a hybrid (and Zeke is an efficient organic farmer) you might want to research it some more.

And what energy are you using canning your veggies? Or the mill processing the seeds etc.

And that's if you're comparing 100% whole food products and not packaged which throws any comparison out the window ...

I also want to eat more locally. I do a local biodynamic/organic CSA for veggies and farmers market for fruit. I also get mostly domestic fruit via a CSA partnership - its trucked :( so not completely local area but vastly reduced from previous.

I haven't gone over winter yet on mostly 811. So will see. After looking into some more I am convinced the math isn't that simple on local vs. imported and that assumes you are really getting local products. In US though Florida produce can cover winter in east US and California/Arizona can cover west. I have been wondering if its possible to store enough squash and hard covered midwest veggie-fruit to augment. Even some apples will keep a real long time. Last it throws energy math out the window but freezing fruits is still considered raw. But frankly, I have had no more luck finding local starches at any time of the year outside the CSA and farmers market.
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Postby jmygann » Thu Aug 27, 2009 11:12 am

but does the 80-10-10 diet require tropical fruits ?

Or ... is there a 811 diet for those who want to not depend on a diesel truck or airplanes or ships ?

a local 811 diet for the USA
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Postby mortimerlightwood » Thu Aug 27, 2009 11:16 am

By local, I guess I really meant within a hundred miles. I don't really need a port as the farmland in Quebec is extraordinarily fertile - we have wine, cider, even some beer comes from locally grown hops and barley, though I'm tee-total; still, it's there. The farmer I'll be buying my baskets from has a central drop-off point near my home - I think he drives a Ford pick-up. As for the acorns - I'm not really planning to eat them, I just think it's neat he offers them. The seeds, well, I just save them off my pumpkins and I grow my own sunflowers so the processing there is minimal. Energy needs are hydro in Quebec, all water all the time, so that's how my stove is powered. And I ride a bike to work.
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Postby Mober » Thu Aug 27, 2009 1:21 pm

811 allows any fruits. They just pick bananas as their "potatoes" since they are available from somewhere anytime of the year and they are relatively cheap. You could eat melons and berries if you can get enough calories. Apples, peaches, plums etc. I think its real hard to get enough calories though without bananas. I would probably not be able to eat all apples all the time. And I think for variety of diet they suggest tropical fruits.

I am in middle of midwest so theoretically I could go around and collect enough sweet corn and maybe beans to last the winter. Not a lot of grains or potatoes for human consumption is grown, its weird, its very hard to find local grains etc in the middle of the "bread basket". I guess I could live on Wisconsin cheese all winter and still be local though.

I don't have enough time/land to grow my own. So unless I go super restrictive I have to purchase from >>100 miles away anyway. May as well be fruit.
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Postby jmygann » Thu Aug 27, 2009 5:56 pm

geoffreylevens wrote:
Mober wrote:I don't have enough time/land to grow my own. So unless I go super restrictive I have to purchase from >>100 miles away anyway. May as well be fruit.

And that in a nut shell is one of the biggest problems w/ our food supply. We have become so separated from the source that it is unsustainable.



If it is unsustainable , what/ where is it sustainable ?

Is there an 80-10-10 diet that is sustainable ?
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Postby Mober » Thu Aug 27, 2009 6:51 pm

I think the point was it's very difficult esp in US to have 100% locally sourced food of any kind, McDougall, Graham or SAD.

However Graham's 811rv (raw vegan) diet is locally sustainable in Fla, Hawaii, maybe even AZ/CA - basically subtropic US where fruits come into season all year around. It's a TON tougher up North. In his book he advises if this is a concern, you may live in the wrong place :)

BTW he defines 811 (not rv) as basically an Ornish/McD diet. Half his book is making a case for McDougall diet. He even says in his book he would choose to eat 10% fat cooked over normal raw diets (which have lots of nuts, avos and extra virgin olive oil). 811rv = McD - cooked - starch + raw fruit + raw greens.
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Postby JeffN » Thu Aug 27, 2009 7:53 pm

Mober wrote: 811rv = McD - cooked - starch + raw fruit + raw greens.


Unfortunately, there is no evidence of any kind for that equation.

However, there are some long lived populations and populations that are relatively disease free that consume a near 80/10/10 diet. However, in all cases it is mostly cooked, and cooked starch is the centerpiece.

In Health
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Postby jmygann » Thu Aug 27, 2009 8:59 pm

[quote="Mober"]I think the point was it's very difficult esp in US to have 100% locally sourced food of any kind, McDougall, Graham or SAD.

However Graham's 811rv (raw vegan) diet is locally sustainable in Fla, Hawaii, maybe even AZ/CA - basically subtropic US where fruits come into season all year around. It's a TON tougher up North. In his book he advises if this is a concern, you may live in the wrong place :)





where does Graham propose that the usa people move to ?

what is the sustainable weekly diet in Florida, Hawaii ?

where in the US is there a "subtropic US where fruits come into season all year around" to supply a 2000+ calorie diet ?

what is the daily weekly diet without importing ??

link to who is doing it ?

What is difficult in having a Mcdougall diet , in say Sebastapol , Ca.

where outside of the USA is there a "100% locally sourced food" diet ?

link ?
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Postby Symphonyofdreams » Thu Aug 27, 2009 11:22 pm

basically if your following the 811 in the US or any non tropical country the majority of your food is shipped from across the world with the exception of a couple months were we have alot of fresh local stuff. It's a extremely expensive diet and not possible for the majoirty of people
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Postby Mober » Fri Aug 28, 2009 7:54 am

Symphony GENERALLY any diet you follow is shipping from all over, not just 811. And it can be relatively INexpensive - bananas and apples and lettuce are cheap. The tropical stuff sure isn't. But If I compare eating out, pizzas, supplements and SAD to 811 its no comparison. So I don't think blanket statement about cost is accurate even though it takes tons of fruit to get enough calories. You also should consider when eating 811, you are consuming water with the food. Do you pay for water? A lot do, al lot get water delivery or buy bottled or even pay their community. (I have a well) It's not simple math.

jmygann - go check vegsource or foodnsport and look around you will get some info on it. Graham doesn't propose people move, his point is if local food source is that key to you, for 811rv diet the only way to meet that goal is to move to warm climates. But the comparison I was trying to make in this trail is can you really eat local cooked? Some here apparently can. In Chicago area, I could now, my CSA box is ridiculous w/ corn, tomatoes, eggplant etc. But there isn't a local supply of basic starches (maybe except corn). Now if I were ultimately concerned about eating local and I wanted to absolutely stay here, I could theoretically eat a ton of corn and do a lot of preserving of veggies, basically eat the native american diet I think you were posting. But that would be a very narrow diet. You could also live in Florida and eat 100% from the fruit grown there all year around, but thats pretty narrow too. I am not there yet. So given the breadth I eat cooked and where its shipped from, I have no issue in eating fruit as well. For me, cost and shipping are not factors whether I eat fruit or cooked starches, it seems to net out even.

JeffN - I was trying to say what you said.
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Postby durianrider » Fri Aug 28, 2009 8:37 am

im a fan of the vegan info that dr mcdougall puts out there, big fan. very appreciative. going vegan is easy, just like raw. you just gotta eat enough cals to support your lifestyle, whatever your diet is.

811 is natures design. no cooking in nature, no fires to warm up and no clothing. humans are a specie specific design, ie all animals in that specie eat the same. ie a yellow fin tuna off shore australia feeds on sardines. a yellowfin tuna off the atlantic of scotland feeds on sardines..

put any human on fruit diet like dr doug graham writes in his 811 book and they will THRIVE. any human!!! no celiacs, no bloating, no phytic acid reactions and no cooked food created toxins like denatured proteins, rancid fats and caramelised carbs. no msg, salt or oil..TOO EASY!! :)

ive been 100% raw vegan since 10/10/05. i used to have chronic fatigue, chron's disease etc and that really improved going high raw vegan, but when i went to dr doug grahams health and fitness week and really learned how to eat properly and afterwards i switched to low fat raw vegan aka 811, thats when i really started kick'n ass with my health and vitality!!

im winning 24hr solo mountain bike races, running marathons, dont own a car ie ride a bike and currently training muay thai in thailand and have some ultra marathons coming up in australia. i dont know anyone else in the vegan community that rides a bike as far as i can. and i dont know any vegan runners that can run marathon as fast as michael arnstein (another elite athlete that doug coaches) and none of us are using any stimulants, hormones, caffiene etc, so thats gotta count for something eh?

im a big fan of eating locally. when in australia i eat 100% australian. when in thailand, i eat 100% thai. when in north america i do the best i can do. but i can always get fruit. when peeps talk about not doing raw cos of imported organic bananas..thats just an excuse fueled by personal fears about a diet based on fruits. why are people scared? cos its fear of the unknown..

so my tip is get the book www.foodnsport.com and give it a fair go. if you aint setting personal bests as an athlete or single mother or really sick person, then i will eat my bamboo bicycle! lol!

another great book doug has written is 'nutrition and athletic performance'. is there a better book written on sports nutrition for the layperson or even nutrition scientist? even an 8 year old could understand that book...

seriously, learn how to eat enough calories from fruit and what that looks like in volume of your fav fruits.

i eat up to 70 bananas a day and my girlfriend is 100% raw vegan too and rode across australia,, solo and fruit powered. so there is thriving examples out there.

instead of doing food prep and washing dishes, id rather be doing something more constructive.

remember, the biggest destruction of forrests is the meat and dairy industry..the second biggest destruction of forrests is for cooking firewood..china, india, indonesia, bangladesh....all these nations could be doing the fruit gig like we where thousands of years ago..

for me grains are an animal rights crime. where is the diversity in a wheat field? but go visit an organic mango plantation or durian orchard..
i have and i highly recomend peeps do the same.

dont just eat local, lets be vocal of how much fuel we waste on cooking food to make the inedible 'edible'...

above all, let the truth be known, even if it may hurt us or overwhelm us..and always remember that life is meant to be SWEET!!! :D
im a vegan and i cycle solo up to 515km in a day..
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Postby Mober » Fri Aug 28, 2009 9:00 am

Durianrider ... If it's nature's design then why did man leave the tropics?! Basically man has been defying his nature since he has been around!

I don't mean to be devil's advocate. I am a fan of both diets and lifestyles. And I read fantastic stories from both sites. And I repeat Grahams "survival vs. thrival" comments in my head daily.

It is also possible to be more ideal in the production of grains and even meat sources to address environmental concerns. Omnivore's Dilemma is a great read on the idyllic farm supporting this. Obviously a big part of this trail is coming to some conclusions on local food sources.

As for vegan runners, Scott Jurek is pretty fast. Look him up. Carl Lewis was pretty fast also. And so was Edwin Moses !!!!
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Oh, dear...

Postby mortimerlightwood » Fri Aug 28, 2009 9:25 am

I think we can eat McDougall locally most anywhere. I really don't like turning this into a 'fear of fruit' debate and I'm not much of a world traveller - but I do know my grandma lived almost her entire life having eaten a banana for the first time at 90 - I'm not kidding. Her food was sourced from her father's farm (including the annual pig - slaughtered and dressed at the farm) and her pantry was stocked every fall for the winter and its ensuing 10 feet of snow till May. It's most unfortunate that so much land has been wasted on monoculture and feel so lucky that I can safely feast on what's grown within the 100 mile limit, even as a committed low-fat vegan. (The pigs are safe from my depredation.)
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