Your Opinions on the 80/10/10 diet

A place to get your questions answered from McDougall staff dietitian, Jeff Novick, MS, RDN.

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Postby Symphonyofdreams » Thu Jun 18, 2009 4:49 pm

geoffreylevens wrote:My doc actually has been on Graham's diet for a couple years. He loves it but does admit that it is VERY expensive. He orders all his food from a commercial wholesale outfit because he eats cases of this and that a week and pounds and pounds of sprouts and baby greens. As already pointed out, aside from the expense, lot of out of season, out of region/country stuff to get enough all year.


yep it's very expensive. FOr me it would be around 1,200 a month for organic and that is only eatting 2.5K calories
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Postby minirunner » Tue Jun 23, 2009 1:13 pm

I tried Dr. Graham's diet for a short period of time, but then I realized that this diet is not naturally feasible. Yes, in our modern time where we can pick bananas GREEN before they are ripe and ship them all around the world, sure we can exist on bananas, but is that natural....no.

How many people in the world live where bananas cannot be grown. I live in a cold climate where very little fruit can be grown, mostly apples, peaches, pears, cherries but they can only be grown during about 4 months of the year. Naturally people in cold climates need grains and starches that can be stored through long winter conditions. It is a very rare people who live in a climate conducive to fruit consumption year round.

A fruit diet is unnatural, the majority of the population would have to eat fruit that was picked unripe and shipped thousands of miles. Grains and starches can be grown almost anywhere and can be stored and consumed year round. A fruit based diet just does not make sense and is not natural by any stretch of the imagination.
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Postby TanneryGulch » Tue Jun 23, 2009 1:33 pm

Symphonyofdreams wrote:But at the same time there not 100 percent vegan...

Right.


Symphonyofdreams wrote:...nor is any culture under 10 percent fat...

Wrong; I can think of at least one. They also happen to be the longest-lived people on record. Just sayin'.


To those who have read Graham's book: Is it worth reading? His is one perspective that I pretty much wrote off as obviously wrong without giving it any thought. Does he address the obvious criticisms of a fruit-based diet?
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Postby Symphonyofdreams » Wed Jun 24, 2009 1:09 am

TanneryGulch wrote:
Symphonyofdreams wrote:But at the same time there not 100 percent vegan...

Right.


Symphonyofdreams wrote:...nor is any culture under 10 percent fat...

Wrong; I can think of at least one. They also happen to be the longest-lived people on record. Just sayin'.


To those who have read Graham's book: Is it worth reading? His is one perspective that I pretty much wrote off as obviously wrong without giving it any thought. Does he address the obvious criticisms of a fruit-based diet?


Which group of people is this?
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Postby MilesA » Wed Jun 24, 2009 6:18 am

Symphonyofdreams wrote:...Which group of people is this?

They are people from the Okinawan islands, close to Japan. These longevity figures are for the older generations, not the younger people with a less traditional diet and lifestyle.

The Okinawa islands were and are culturally distinct from Japan. The diet of the older people is extremely low in fat, based primarily on sweet potatoes and rice, along with other vegetables, seaweed, tofu and very small amounts of fish.

Japanese are the longest-lived people in the world, and around five times as many Okinawans live past the age of 100 compared to mainland Japanese.

The Okinawan diet is one factor. There are other factors that may contribute to the long lifespan:
- Okinawan culture is much less stressful than the mainland
- Okinawan people tend to be active and stay active as they age
- Okinawan islands are Pacific islands with mild climate and good weather most of the year.
- Okinawans respect the older people and watch out for each other.

When the U.S. occupied the islands after WWII, of course we messed everything up. We built large military bases staffed with tens of thousands of servicemen, so the American lifestyle has heavily influenced everything since then. Okinawa has also become a big tourist destination for Japanese people.
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Postby Symphonyofdreams » Wed Jun 24, 2009 4:13 pm

That's weird becasue i've aways heard they eat alot of Fish. it's hard to have a whole food vegan diet of 6 percent fat let alone with any animal products.
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Postby Symphonyofdreams » Wed Jun 24, 2009 4:37 pm

Yeah it's hard to find the real info becasue these studies are funded by people trying to profit or push a certain diet. Any fat souce adds u so quick so to get 6 percet calories from fat of unprocessed foods you'd have to have no nuts, seeds, no faty meats like fish or dairy. I wonder what the life range is for the people on the old diet becasue now it's only 81 which is only slighty higher the the US and other western countries and like 2 years better then Iceland which diet has a ton of animal products
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Not really weird...

Postby f1jim » Wed Jun 24, 2009 4:37 pm

Almost always certain elements of news get blown out of proportion for obvious reasons. People think the Chinese eat tons of soy but the truth is a surprise. Same with the original Mediterranean diet studies. The news had us thinking the people of Crete were drinking glassfuls of olive oil a day when the truth was really a couple of spoonfuls. It's so hard to get the real story through the filtering and spin of mass media today. It's our good fortune to have resources like Jeff Novick to make sense of the "nutritional news" we get.
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No doubt.

Postby f1jim » Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:56 pm

Things are changing in China much faster than here.(Unfortunately)
All of the developing world is getting supersized!
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Postby TanneryGulch » Thu Jun 25, 2009 10:54 am

geoffreylevens wrote:I have also read that Okinawan's eat loads of pork!

LMAO. Yeah, this is a tricky one. On the one hand, you have the Willcox paper, based on archived data from thousands of respondents taken at the time and published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal. On the other hand, Sally Fallon, who has two degrees in English and has published a cookbook, says she talked to some Japanese guy who knew some Okinawans, and he said that their diet was "greasy and good." So clearly there is conflicting evidence on the subject, and we may never know the truth.
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Postby Symphonyofdreams » Thu Jun 25, 2009 4:32 pm

What about the fish intake? There economy is big on fish. maybe they just don't consume that much but usally big fishing countries consume alot like Iceland, japan ect. I'd imgaine there pretty low in fat, but 6 percent is very unlikely. Seems they'd live longer since there diet is super clean and low fat, only 81 years which is a couple years longer then most developed countries with crap diets
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Symphony

Postby f1jim » Thu Jun 25, 2009 6:40 pm

How is the McDougalling coming? Is it harder this time around? You are probably coming up on nearly a week at it and I was curious the second time around if it was any easier. That is traditionally what we see?
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Postby Symphonyofdreams » Thu Jun 25, 2009 8:24 pm

It's going good, It was going find before, it was just once i went off it was a steep sloap
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Postby Mober » Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:53 pm

I think this argument gets too "religious". I go back and forth on 811 and McD. But I don't think personal anecdotes are that key as everyone claims what they prefer is best for various reasons. I do take away a key point of 811 that cooked foods and agriculture etc were a necessity as or enabled man to leave the topics and populate the earth. Thereby moving to places where cooked food had to be eaten to survive. So that in fact actually makes the argument that man on grains is what made man what he is today. But we can also eat organic fruits from everywhere around the world since we also have the skill as man to travel, so both are viable options.

However the viewpoint still exists that just because you can live on it doesn't mean its optimal, so the 811 point of view is raw, whole, fresh, ripe fruits w/ greens is the optimum delivery of calories. In addition this diet, it also call for upping calorie expenditure via lots of physical activity, like an extra 1500 calories PER DAY for 150 lb person, which adds a demand for more immediate energy in the form of simple sugars in fruit. The argument that athletes eat starches for energy is true in that thats how they top off their glycogen stores prior to the physical activity. During the physical activity, its all simple sugars, sports drinks, gels etc. So the point of view is up your physical demands and eat foods that deliver energy faster w/ minimal burden on digestive system.

In addition there is the philosophical viewpoint that cooking foods destroys nutrition. Which seems to be why we steam instead of boil, we don't want to pour out the vitamins. Crispy potato fries aren't exactly chock full of nutrients. So in essence what is being espoused by 811 is basically agreed to by just about everyone! The main difference is that it should be the primary/only way to eat. But then again, its more than just what is ingested its about physical activity. As for my own anecdotes, I never felt stronger as a runner than when I ate beans alot. But I also cooked up some spinach one day and it looked like it was rotten to me after eating 811. So I mostly eat 811 but eat cooked foods at restaurants and visits etc or dinner w/ family. On the scale of good to SAD, Id rank these both so far over on the good side that its really useless to argue.
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8-1-1

Postby mortimerlightwood » Sat Aug 15, 2009 9:25 am

I've been very interested in this topic because I have tried the 8-1-1 after McDougalling for about 2 years and, while it is fun to try new things, that diet is truly unfeasible. The cost and inconvenience of eating bushels of fruit, even with smoothies, make it impractical. Also, I am trying to eat locally, supporting farmers in my region and reducing consumption of long-distance food. You really can't be a locavore on 8-1-1 as bananas seem to be a staple in it. Part of my research into local eating includes some data on what the Iroquois people ate in my part of North America. Here's a brief quote:

"The three main crops (corn, beans, and squash) were called the "three sisters" due to their important role in sustaining the life of the Iroquois. Other crops included artichokes, pumpkins, sunflowers (for the seeds and the oil) tobacco and various herbal plants, grown in small quantities for teas or medicines...
Wild plants contributed no more than 1% of the diet, but the Iroquois were familiar with a number of edible nuts, tubers, berries etc., which added variety to the diet." (olivetreegenealogy.com/moh/food.shtml)

(Notice the centrality of plant starches.)
I don't think First Nations people were unnatural or unhealthy in their food choices; I do think shipping tons of mangos, bananas and other fruit all over the world using up fossil fuels to do so is unnatural and, ultimately, unhealthy for us all.
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