The struggle.....

[f1jim]

I'd love to get everyones feedback on a idea I have bounced around my head for quite some time. I'd love to see if anyone can relate to a process that may alive and well here or perhaps it's just more of f1jim's rambling and lack of coherence. You tell me.
There are a lot of personality types on the boards here. Everything from meek and passive to overt and aggressive. The complete spectrum of personalities and characters on display. I think I am seeing one issue that is at work here among several members. These are people that are generally rebellious and free form in their approach to life which made it rather easy for them to adopt something as radical and anti-mainstream as this particular diet. Giving up the consumption of meat of all kinds, added fats and oils, much of the world of processed foods, and all the rest of it takes someone not afraid to step outside the mainstream flow.
Then, accomplishing that they find themselves among other like minded people and sense they are no longer the brash, blaze your own trail type but now they are among a larger group of people following the same path. They find their behavior in following this way of eating is now not rebellious or novel but patterned much like everyone else here. Hence the dilemma. The more you follow the program "as written" the more your sense of rebelliousness and adventure feels compromised. Following the "McDougall rules" feels like a cramp on your own individualism. Yet, following the program closely yields the benefits of results. So an internal battle is waged and the cyclical struggle begins.
If you can relate to this, or you also see it at work with people I'd like to know if this is a real issue or just my brain in overdrive, going nowhere. If there is nothing to this the thread will die and I will have learned to better observe and keep quiet longer!
Your thoughts?
f1jim

[LoriJenny]

I agree with you Jim! Thanks for those insights!

[serenity]

Thanks for the thought. Doesn't resonate with me though.

[Anna Green]

Jim, I think most of us live so much in our worlds where we are thought to be off our rockers for doing this that we wouldn't get to the place you are talking about even if we were so inclined. Also for someone to be there they'd have to have a personality disorder. Most of us will cop to some neurotic behavior (I have my hand raised) but not so much that.

I like that you are thinking below the surface about what is happening here.

[sksamboots]

I can't relate to this, sorry

[Potatohead]

I really can't relate...I am who I am..no one or thing can change me..my biggest thing is..I will show you what to do if you ask me, but I will not hound you to do it...I think having lived with someone for so long(hubby)who is not a follower of this plan, but has changed his eating habits dramatically since his bypass surgery last year....I can better deal with the "this is not an all or nothing approach"....I can say I understand the passion of the folks that are totally on plan, but I get put off when they try and "shove" their beliefs to others...but hey this is me...and I am happy..that's all that matters

[AlwaysAgnes]

Your thoughts?
f1jim

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKpQRjj_WbU

[Debbie]

I really can't relate...I am who I am..no one or thing can change me..my biggest thing is..I will show you what to do if you ask me, but I will not hound you to do it...I think having lived with someone for so long(hubby)who is not a follower of this plan, but has changed his eating habits dramatically since his bypass surgery last year....I can better deal with the "this is not an all or nothing approach"....I can say I understand the passion of the folks that are totally on plan, but I get put off when they try and "shove" their beliefs to others...but hey this is me...and I am happy..that's all that matters

[f1jim]

Potatohead I think you missed the point of the original post. This isn't about forcing someone to follow a pattern of eating. It's about the internal fight someone may have between following what they have learned will bring them help and losing their apparent independence to freely choose, in this case food, at any time. It's about how we process the message of no meat, no oils and reconcile that with our own sense of freedom to eat, sometimes without regard to it's health toll on us. Many of us, myself included, always prided myself in my "don't follow the crowd" thinking and yet here I am encouraging others to follow the path Dr. McDougall and the many other nutritional gurus preach. I want to know if that struggle causes some to more easily fall away from a healthy diet. Nothing more or less than that is what I am pondering.
For years I ate what can only be described as an appalling diet. I think the idea of following some strict set of dietary guidelines was highly unattractive to me, just from a personal perspective. I think, in hindsight, it contributed to decades of poor eating for me. Had I been more flexible in my approach to less flexibility in my diet I could have saved myself from years of excess weight and a handful of health issues, some life threatening. It's just my observation I may see this in play with some members. Maybe not.
Once again, this is not about harranging someone to be strict on the plan. This is about inner conflict and possibly the sense that they are no longer at that same level of control about their diet.
f1jim

[LoriJenny]

There are those here who can relate to this Jim, I know I do...of course it makes it hard to admit it when people say stuff like "anyone who thinks like that has a personality disorder". The world is full of many unique people...different, unique...these are great words as opposed to "anyone who is not like me has a disorder". Tolerance...another great word. Just sayin.
In working with kids I notice that there are definately a few who are "do it by self"ers...and I think I would be included in that group. And I think those who think like this would be likely to find themselves in the situation you described.

[Lexus]

For me, I feel more free to choose now than when I was eating the SAD diet. Because of the addictive nature of fat/sugar/processed foods I felt very out of control, even though I had all the choices in the world when it came to what I would eat. Yes, now my eating palate had shrunk quite considerably, but I feel like I am actually making the choices of what I eat freely because the food isn't "speaking to me" like SAD food did.

I feel stronger because I am in control of what I eat. I don't relish the idea of getting in other people's faces because they aren't eating a great diet (either here or in my personal life). I just wait for them to ask me what I'm doing and I'll be more than glad to inform them. My opinion that those who need to chastise others about their failures are themselves struggling with this WOE.

Yes, I think my rebellious nature helped me to accept this WOE, not feeling STRANGE around people eating SAD but rather feel EMPOWERED, SMART and IN CONTROL. I guess for some the McD WOE might feel confining to them and that is a ok way to feel. Hopefully they come to realize that we are all being rebellious against the SAD and the cultural beliefs that built the SAD. Those of us who eat a McD diet are still a VERY small part of the whole. I don't see how people could feel that this community is anything but a way to have a support network of like-minded people in a world full of SAD diet booby-traps.

[Vegankit]

Interesting idea and I do believe it probably applies to some, but not to me. I am the proud owner of several patents thanks to my ability to rebel against convention/think outside the box, but I don't do it to my detriment.

I do fit into a group - I don't know what to call this group - but I'm one of the ones who remain strictly compliant.

I read the books, understood the message and put in the heavy lifting to get and remain compliant quickly. Without the scientific data backing up the diet, I wouldn't have given this more than a passing glance and would have continued on the unhealthy AHA and ADA diet as advocated by "main stream" medical community.

I also had more serious health issues than most posters so I had more to gain by adherence. Plus I had quick feedback in my body that indeed this diet does work wonders. I think I share this with others in "my" group.

[WeeSpeck]

Hi Jim,

I don’t think of myself as rebellious and free form; exactly the opposite, really. I am a rule follower and a detail oriented perfectionist. So, when I first dabbled with McDougall principles back in the late 80s, it called to that need to perfect my health and gain control of my world.

My desire to follow this life-style comes more from a need to be free of any person (doctors) dictating how to live my life. I suppose there are some rebellious tendencies in that statement now that I think about it.

However, the seduction of food, the inability to escape the Pleasure Trap and the magnitudes of businesses, family members and well-meaning friends made the journey over the last 25 years quite challenging.

Instead of feeling accomplished in my desire to give up meat and dairy, which was far easier than giving up refined grains and added oils, I felt isolated and martyred. I was the odd duck that could not go to the company party because there were no menu choices available for me. I was the weirdo at the family dinners that brought the scary food.

It has taken most of my adult life to get past those feelings of rejection in a crowd and in social settings. I lamented on countless occasions to my husband about how I wanted to eat the “good food” and not feel like each bite I took was digging one more scoop of dirt for my grave.

But, I am tenacious and stubborn and I suppose that comes with being a free-form rebellious spirit. But by finding this McDougall community, and incorporating these boards into my daily reading, I did not feel compromised or cramped. It did not impinge on my need to be different; exactly the opposite!

I feel stronger and stronger with my healthy choices because of these boards and like-minded people. I continue to build on my library of books that bolster these philosophies. Recently, I have read The End to Overeating. I am currently reading Breaking the Food Seduction. I just received my copy of The Starch Solution.

I watch videos from the Veg Society of Hawaii. I watch McDougall Advanced Study Weekend sessions. I watch anything that comes my way that supports this way of life. It keeps me strong and on task and focused.

I like the question you posed and I did ponder it a few days before replying because I really wanted to know if it held merit for me. But, I have to say that these boards are not the reason I grow passive or continue my internal battle. It is this community that bolsters my individualism. We are a unique group that belongs to the coolest club out there! I feel like I belong to the popular clique when I stay on plan and follow the principles of this program.

In fact, the last few times I have ordered food at a restaurant, I made assumptions that the rice would be brown, the pasta would be whole grain, the vegetables would not be swimming in oil and the beans would not be smothered in cheese. I have so completely made the switch in my mind that we are meant to eat foods closest to their whole form without the inclusion of animal products, that I am astounded when it is ever served any other way.

I like to think that I joined this way of life because I have a rebellious, free-spirited personality. But, really, I think it is mainly because I want to do what is right for my body. I want to live until I die. I would love nothing more than to have everyone I love and associate with living by this credo as well.

Thanks so much for the thought provoking topic. It really got me thinking about what motivates me down this path and what keeps me coming back. I appreciate your insight and point of view.

[Evi]

Hi Jim! first of all i would like to thank you for being so supportive in this forum. When i read your point of view always made sence to me and the way i think about life.
About your question: I think that you have made a very interesting point. I do want to be out of the box when i think about life paths and patterns . It is more interesting for me, keeps me excited.. "what if this works...?"
And finally i find out that if you follow DrMcdougall's Diet (which by the way he offers it for free which had an tremendous effect on me) then you have RESULTS .
I followed the diet principles for a week and i had experienced the miracle....
Even though i had this experience i have difficulty applying the diet again on my daily life - one reason for that is i felt that it restricted my social life and i invented the "every day exceptions" . But again doing this i am slimmer than i used to be.
Now I am on my new begining on doing MMD . My goal is different that other times - my goal is to follow the principals ans secontly lose some weight - Thinking this way is liberating for me .
And now after your comment I am thinking about that " Maybe i am a rebel only in words not with my acts " and that is serius ......
This Forum makes me feel that i belong to a community that cares about the Human - makes me stronger , gives me motivation and ideas- i need it .
Hope that helps a little - (sorry about my english)

[Anna Green]

LoriJenny, so sorry. Didn't mean that to sound so harsh.