The struggle.....

[Melinda]

I hadn't replied to this subject because I'm just not sure. Although I look mainstream, I have always been open to 'alternative' ways of thinking, and I do like being involved with people who aren't afraid to be out of the mainstream. That said, when people get too far out for my liking I don't like that either. ie I am a common sense type of person. I think the hard part is truly being confined by rules - I do fine with rules in the workplace and life in general but I have always, since a little kid, had a 'mind of my own' as my Mom used to say , and always thought that I knew best. Plus My Mom drilled it into me to think for myself and not follow the crowd. However I started a running program a while ago ( I ran for many years but had to stop due to back/fatigue problems from work and night shifts) and now when I'm tempted to eat any oil, I just think how clean I am going to run with no oil in my body - it's a great motivator for me! And of course, now I feel sick if I eat oily food. Now if my husband or I eat something with oil, we go ' yech, what is that awful taste?"

[Debbie]

I'd love to get everyones feedback
f1jim

Hi! I dont overly have an opinion except for agreeing with a few here. But I do have a question. You opened this post with everyone. I take that to mean everyone on the board. Yet not everyone comes or posts in the journal section. We're you targeting only certain people for this question? How come you didnt post this in the lounge if you wanted everyone's opinion?

Just wondering

[Riva]

FYI Debbie- I am a person that checks New Posts everyday so I read from everywhere.
Riva

[Debbie]

FYI Debbie- I am a person that checks New Posts everyday so I read from everywhere.
Riva

Oh. I actually hardly use that feature because, like right now I've already read a half a dozen posts but when I click on new posts those are the ones that came up even tho I've already read them. I just scroll through a few forums and certain threads. There's a few forums I have no interest in going in, so I stick to a few.

[f1jim]

I posted this message in the journal section because I think I recognize this pattern in a few people that journal. The message is also being fleshed out somewhat in the Lounge in another thread called Thinking Outside The Box. There are some parallel ideas being discussed in both places.
I do hope this is not being taken as an attack or a point made as if it's a character flaw. I think it might be a point that people may or may not see at work in their own dynamics of following the program. We are rather complicated beings and so much is at play when it comes to following a dietary path that diverges so far from what is seen as the norm.
This whole thing may be an exercise in futility on my part but after a while it's easy to think you see some patterns. I sometimes think that several of the people that were here and participating very recently might have been struggling with this. I remember several specifically coming in with guns blazing and very independent and proud of it. They seemed to wither under the pattern of compliance as it seemingly stifled their sense of independence. It just seems like a perfectly natural thing to fight if you have quite a bit of rebelliousness and a sense of freedom of choice being taken away. I sometimes wonder if serious health issues hadn't made me jump in the way I did would I be fighting that issue myself.
f1jim

[Debbie]

Oh no. I didn't see it as an attack at all. I was just curious was all.

[Riva]

It is an interesting concept. Not true for me. This is the one place I feel completely supported and feel part of a good thing. But...I am not a particularly rebellious person!
Riva

[Lola]

Yes, I think my rebellious nature helped me to accept this WOE, not feeling STRANGE around people eating SAD but rather feel EMPOWERED, SMART and IN CONTROL.

[Becky]

Hi Jim,

This is a very interesting subject, and honestly, I can relate to what you are suggesting - to a degree! Most likely the idea that eating a diet that fell outside the mainstream approach is what drew me to this philosophy 35 years ago. I've always been a bit drawn to the non-traditional side of things, but mostly as a dabbler. I live my life safely within the confines of what it takes to "go along to get along", but I've also been a toe dipper into the streams of the non-conventional. So, I guess you could say I exist a little in both worlds. Not so surprising, considering I was coming of age in the 1960's-1970's.

When I was just 21, I started entertaining the idea of a vegetarian diet, and I was totally drawn to it for the very fact that it was alternative to the mainstream. But it just so happened that I was also interested in health issues, so the initial draw was just the thing that opened the door. Once the door was open, and I could see all the valid reasons to eat a plant based diet, I could never "unknow" the truth behind the science. About 9 years later, I stumbled upon Dr. McDougall (this was around 1985), and I knew the truth in his words.

So, even though I've skirted around the edge of mainstream in many areas of my life (in my early adult life this included alternative education for my children, long term involvement in La Leche League, vegetarian and eventually a vegan diet, and in my retirement years living full time on the road, traveling in my 5th wheel trailer), my criteria for becoming involved in an activity doesn't hinge on the fact that it is outside of mainstream. It just seems I'm sort of drawn to those concepts for whatever reason.

I would never dream of giving up what I know to be the best diet on Earth just because it seems to be making headway into the mainstream, or because I think it isn't "different" anymore. Au contraire, mon ami! I couldn't be more pleased that with each passing year the number of people gaining awareness about a plant based diet moves us ever closer to critical mass. It's actually a dream come true for me!

This is a great thread, Jim, definitely food for thought. Thanks for putting it out there.

[Caramellow]

Jim,

YES YES YES! I completely relate to this. I have done the "try something new, then rebel" thing my entire life on various diets. As soon as Weight Watchers points values started popping up on common packaged foods and in restaurants, I was like, "Okay, I'm over it, everyone's doing it, this is no longer interesting. I don't want to be a weight watcher anymore."

Same thing with various fad diets and crazes. I thought I was totally exotic when I started drinking kombucha and coconut water years ago--pretty soon, everyone was sipping the stuff and I stopped buying it. Ha! It's comical, really.

I am pretty aware that I rebel like this regularly, so when I really want to stick with something, I simply try to change aspects of whatever I'm doing. I'll get super elaborate with my cooking or try a weird workout. Seems to help me feel like I'm not just doing the same old thing that everyone else is doing.

Funny you brought this up, I think it's a totally valid observation!

[CarolynA]

Actually, I am somewhat rebellious, but being from the Midwest, eating this way IS a rebellion. No matter how many people on this board are eating the same way as me, I am still a rebel amongst my family and friends.

[dlee]

Actually, I am somewhat rebellious, but being from the Midwest, eating this way IS a rebellion. No matter how many people on this board are eating the same way as me, I am still a rebel amongst my family and friends.

I agree CarolynA I'm the rebel in the family too. This is way too radical for them. At the same time it would be so fantastic if this became the norm ! How easy would it be "to eat out" Ha!
Good thoughts Jim. I'm thinking people are really still pretty way out there even when they have to keep with in the McD gudelines! just my 2 pesos! Dlee

[kkrichar]

This post has been simmering in the back of my mind since the day I read it. My very first reaction was absolutely NOT! Some of the reasons already mentioned made me think that, 1) I'm still a freak every minute of the day I'm not on these boards and 2) I'm relatively mainstream in a lot of ways and 3) something about the way it is written makes me think I'm being insulted.

Fortunately, I let myself absorb it a little and turn it around and look at it from different angles. Now I think Jim may be onto something here. I always think I'm the exception to every rule. I'm not sure I feel the need to be different for the sake of being different. It's more like (and this may just be semantics) I don't want to work very hard for anything. If other people look like they're working really hard for something I instantly look for shortcuts. I always think I can find an easier, softer way to do things and get the same results as everyone else. This is a chronic, lifelong issue with me. I didn't need to go to class, or keep up on my reading or start my papers early in college. I don't need to stretch after running or warmup before running. I don't need to be at work when everyone else does. I don't need to follow MWL every minute of every day even in restaurants, on vacation, or at street festivals ( ). Surely, there's a way to get what everyone else has but with WAY less effort.

When I'm desperate or scared I think I'm willing to go to any lengths to get better. As soon as I feel a little better I think I got a little carried away there for a minute. No need to get all extra-curricular with this whole no oil, no processed foods deal, right? I can NEVER have another vegan scone from Co-op? Really??

I remember, before I got sober, I would call the AA hotline every day. I would get a recording (there's a real person who answers the phone these days) and it would say, press 1 for Monday's schedule, 2 for Tuesday's schedule and so on. I would write down all the meeting times and instantly feel better. It was such a relief to know there was a solution. Unfortunately, that was all the relief I needed and I would never actually go to a meeting! That went on for months! Needless to say, things never got better. Finally, I went to a meeting and my life changed. The one thing, the only thing in fact, that I have ever taken someone else's word on is that I need to keep going to AA meetings. Every person I know who started drinking again said (assuming they lived to tell me this) they quit going to meetings and eventually things fell apart. Normally I would think I was the exception to this rule. For some reason I am not willing to play around with my sobriety. I refuse to look for an easier way because the potential risk is too great. Clearly, I have not taken my physical health as seriously. I still think I can find a way to half-ass this thing and get the results I want. Well, I don't really think that. I've moved into the next phase which is believing I have to follow this plan 100% but thinking it's OK to start on some other day. I'll get there.

This is a very interesting and thought provoking topic. Thanks Jim!! It helps me to look deeper at my motivations and my refusal to just do this thing. It's a choice I'm making and I need to take responsibility for that.

[f1jim]

Very thought provoking! Since i was diagnosed with heart disease I have willingly adopted this way of eating. In my head I know I have no other choice if I wish to live out a life as close to normal as possible. It means that at some level my freedom to slap a pork chop on my plate and consume it along with some buttery concoction for dessert isn't really an option anymore. Yes, I could chose to eat that food anyway but the reality is I am in a box, not of my choosing. I can struggle with that decision at every meal or I can make the decision and be at peace with it and not fight that battle again. This is how I choose to proceed. I am not strong enough to fight that battle every day. I'm not strong enough in the willpower department to win that fight with myself every time. I might win most of the time but that probably will not be good enough given what I know about my families tendencies around heart disease and other chronic conditions. On one hand it will always bother me that my meal choices have been pulled away from me as a way to survive more days on this planet. On the other hand it's gotten so routine I am losing this as a concern as I go on. If I wasn't so scared of having to live out the consequences of my actions I might say the heck with this struggle and roll the dice. But the misery I have had to witness in my own family haunts me. For now, it seems like the best of two confining choices but eating a whole foods, plant based diet grows less confining daily. I am finally getting comfortable when another couple invites us out to eat or over for dinner. That took some time. But even that isn't worrisome now. Time does have a way of working for you instead of against you after a while.
There is much more similar about this way of eating to ending a destructive habit because it is ending a destructive pattern that rewards you with every bite. All those that struggle with drugs, alcohol, tobacco, anything in that class is tackled in much the same way. None of us wish to be portrayed in the same light as alcohol or drug addiction, but honestly, giving up garbage food is virtually the same fight. Legalities aside, it's probably as tough as any of those other addictions to conquer because we have to face it three times a day. We win the battle at breakfast but that still leaves two more battles plus the temptation of snacks the rest of the day.
However you do it, the answer is still the same. Get away from the substances long enough for your body to get to a point of control over them. Whether you go fast or slow in that process it really isn't over till you get to that point of control. And even at that point a meal of indulgence will start the whole destructive process over again if we let it. This is a lifelong fight that won't end till we do. That can seem depressing if we let it emotionally zap us. We have to continue to view this from the perspective of being a lifestyle choice not a lifestyle phase we are going through. It's one of the choices much like character and personality that stay with us even as many other aspects of our life goes sailing by. For many of us, we make this choice or forever be saddled with chronic disease or obesity till our last breath without the taste of a normal life in a normal body. That is too much to walk away from for me. It makes that lifestyle choice so much easier to swallow, no matter how rebellious I might think of myself.
f1jim