Is this diet good for an ultra marathoner in training?

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Is this diet good for an ultra marathoner in training?

Postby kyledlarson » Fri Jul 07, 2017 12:50 pm

Hello everyone,
I'm new, so I apologize if this topic has been discussed.

I'm in the process of training for a 50k, but I just cannot seem to shake the weight. I lost about 45 pounds a few years ago, but have remained stagnant the last couple of months. My family and I are devoted plant-based eaters, we rarely use oil, and our treats come from Engine 2 Diet/Forks Over Knives/Lindasy Nixon/etc. Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that if I were to give us a letter grade on how we cook and eat (we also rarely go out to dinner), I'd give us a solid 'B'. We could be a 'B+' or 'A', but I think with our hectic schedules and cooking for a family, we do a pretty good job.

My questions relate to fat. A lot of coaches and nutrition folks in the running community preach that fat is great source for fuel. I don't believe it to the point where I'm going to start drinking shots of olive oil, but I have definitely indulged a bit in peanut and almond butter. After a long run I'll often eat a few rice cakes with some peanut butter on them. Could this be the reason why I'm not losing weight? I've tried a lot of things and when I went to the doctor this afternoon I've actually gained weight. I'm pretty bummed about it.

I wanted to give the Starch Solution a try. I wanted to see if there are any other distance runners who have felt success, or have seen their running improve. My goal weight is 160. I'm currently at 180. My clothes aren't tight or anything like that, but I would just like to be leaner and lighter by the time race day comes in October.

Thank you in advance!
My running and nutrition blog, http://wildwoodrunning.wordpress.com
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Re: Is this diet good for an ultra marathoner in training?

Postby Skip » Wed Jul 12, 2017 8:54 am

"The fundamental principle of ethics is reverence for life" Albert Schweitzer
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Re: Is this diet good for an ultra marathoner in training?

Postby vgpedlr » Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:24 am

Login issues have kept me away. . . .

Is this diet good for an ultra marathoner in training?

Why wouldn't it be?

That is not intended as a snarky retort, though I am prone to that. It is meant as a serious question for reflection. What about this diet concerns you? Do you think you will be lacking in something? That is a common response. Research each nutrient you think is lacking here and elsewhere and make up your mind. Protein? Calcium? Iron? Omega 3? Vitamin D? B12? They are all covered here. Do you think you will get an excess of something? Less common response, but possible. Research it. The education tab here has lots of resources, and Jeff's forum is a veritable gold mine of info. Measure your food and track it on the computer using CRON-O-Meter or similar. See how easy it is to get what you need, or make adjustments as needed. When you make the effort on your own to see, it means more than if the choir here tells you.

The East Africans that have dominated everything up to the marathon eat a very similar diet because that's what everybody back home eats. I'd love to see the Kenyans tackle ultras, but that's not where the money is. But the Tarahumara built a culture around ultra running in the Copper Canyon of Mexico, and they eat a similar diet. In fact, their traditional diet, studied in the 1970s, had 90% of calories from TWO FOODS. Corn and beans. The Okinawans were pretty athletic as well, and the Shaolin monks are legendary, and they fueled their martial arts training on a similar diet.

I've been at this for awhile, racing XTERRA off road triathlons, MTB, and trail running. I've raced up to 8 hrs on a number of occasions. In fact, I've got a 100K MTB race on Sat. where I need to finish in around 7 hrs. I couldn't even get to the start line before I started eating this way. I'm a back of the pack racer, but at least I can participate now, whereas before I couldn't.

Ultimately, you will have to test it out in your own life to see. It is a skill, and there is a learning curve, but it's doable.

If you decide to pursue this, please keep us posted. There is a small athlete group here, and we love stories and race reports.

Good luck!

BTW: What race?
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Re: Is this diet good for an ultra marathoner in training?

Postby kyledlarson » Sat Jul 22, 2017 3:56 pm

Thank you for your response. I guess I was asking because I’ve heard so much about ketogenic diets and the necessity for fat consumption in the ultra running community. I’ve been plant based for a few years now, but have never really hit my stride in terms of weight loss or the body type I would like. I managed to get down from 220 pounds to somewhere between 175-185, but have kind of plateaued. No matter how much I exercise or watch my diet I just kind of stay there.

Since I’ve started to dip my toes in the Starch Solution, I’ve cut down greatly on my fat consumption. Peanut butter was always a go to source for recovery after a long run. Now I’ve cut it down to maybe a tablespoon every few days. Similar to avocados, about a tablespoon of chopped avocado on top of a green salad or in pinto beans. I’ve been upping my potato, rice and whole wheat intake on days I know I will be burning a lot of calories on the trail.

So far I haven’t gone all in, but I plan to this week, as well as tracking my nutritional intake via an app. I’m hoping that, coupled with me getting off some nerve pain medication by the end of this week, will help with the weight loss. My goal weight is somewhere between 155-165.

The race itself is just a friendly 50k between a couple friends here on the local Portland trails. There’s no set date. Sometime toward he end of September or October, but I’m on a training plan that gets pretty serious starting this week(6 days of running a week, up from 4-5). Hopefully this diet will help, but I’m confident it’s a good place to start.
My running and nutrition blog, http://wildwoodrunning.wordpress.com
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Re: Is this diet good for an ultra marathoner in training?

Postby vgpedlr » Sat Jul 22, 2017 6:46 pm

Congratulations on the weight loss, 45 lbs is no small feat, that is an accomplishment.

I reread the OP and I understand a little better. There are many WFPB approaches, and this one is particular in its requirements. It is very similar to Esselstyn's diet to reverse heart disease. NO oil is important. Limiting or avoiding high fat plant foods is important for many people. Take the time to educate yourself on the Program. Lots of resources under the Education tab. The Starch Solution is also very good. Then there are many resources in Jeff's forum. The information on Calorie Density is very important, especially for weight loss. Study that, track your intake and everything should become clearer. Weight loss plateaus aren't unusual, but they are mysterious. It's a time to record, track and analyze using the principles of calorie density to make adjustments. Also, you note weights, but not BMI. Sometimes people get fixated on a number when it's better to just focus on the practice.

Regarding the LCHF/Keto krowd, I know what you're referring to. I often feel inundated by their propaganda. I put it into perspective in that conflict sells and drives stories. So when a few people turn convention on its head it attracts attention. I've read Phinney/Volek and listened to many of the proponents of high fat fueling. They haven't convinced me that it's better for performance. Many of them believe that it's better for long term health, but I have not seen any evidence that that is true either. Most athletes at all levels and all distances use conventional carb based fueling, so we KNOW it works. As McDougall always points out, all successful populations throughout history have eaten a starch based diet. For therapeutic purposes, such as disease reversal, this diet has an outstanding track record. We KNOW it works. Don't get lost in the LC noise. It's true that fat is an important fuel for endurance, the longer the distance, the more important it becomes. Which is why the body stores fat. Even the leanest athlete has plenty stored, so there is no need to focus on consuming it, especially if weight loss is still a goal. Example, I ate really late last night, which I don't like. So today I skipped breakfast and went on a 2 hr road ride. By the time I took in any calories, it had been 14 hrs, including that ride. Only water on the bike. I can do this because I have trained my body over time with aerobic training to burn fat for fuel.

Consider pinning on a number for your 50K. There are lots of great races in OR. It's tons of fun to line up with a bunch of other loons who think paying money to get up early and run around the woods all day is great idea.

I forgot to mention Scott Jurek 7 time winner of Western States and former course record holder.. His memoir Eat and Run is a great read, from both ultra running and vegan perspectives. Each chapter has a recipe. Jurek does not follow the nutritional guidelines here, as he makes dishes with higher calorie density and uses oil. But they can all be modified. Rich Roll's Finding Ultra is also a good vegan endurance read, but much of the story is about his former addictions.
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Re: Is this diet good for an ultra marathoner in training?

Postby kyledlarson » Sat Jul 22, 2017 9:58 pm

Thank you! Yes, I've read Scott's book and his veggie burger recipe is a household staple of mine(minus the oil).

I'm glad to hear you say you felt the LCHF pressure too. To me it seems like it's not much different than Atkins or other fads. The cholesterol and adverse effects from excessive fat and protein sound like these folks might be playing with fire, at least as far as their long term health goes. I figure why only focus on fat when you can give your body carbs to burn before it needs to tap into fat storage.

I'm a big believer in plant based eating. I'm looking forward to reducing the amount of fat I currently eat and see where that takes me.

Thank you for responding and for the encouragement as well
My running and nutrition blog, http://wildwoodrunning.wordpress.com
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Re: Is this diet good for an ultra marathoner in training?

Postby JackCyp » Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:31 pm

Hello, I'm new..stumble on tis conversation here. Would be most interested in knowing your progress and if you have any other thoughts regarding tis issues.

Jack
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Re: Is this diet good for an ultra marathoner in training?

Postby Skip » Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:34 pm

Have you considered fasting as a way to set yourself up to lose weight and burn fat? Here's a trainer that might suggest that:
https://wildideasworthliving.com/david- ... rformance/
"The fundamental principle of ethics is reverence for life" Albert Schweitzer
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