Dr. McDougall's Online Discussion Board

I'm not sure if it's pointful to ask because I can just run an experiment to see, but I'd like to ditch at least 10 stubborn pounds ASAP. The thing is, I'm involved in the self-imposed torture of a couch to 50k program, which is going OK so far, and don't want to do anything that would stop my muscle or endurance improvement. (It's like couch to 5k, except that I currently run/walk 60-70 miles per week. I'm steadily increasing the percentage I run versus walk.)

The first thing I'm going to do is absolutely clean up my diet, with the help of the Cronometer religion, but other than that:

- Should I still be able to improve while maintaining a moderate calorie deficit?
- Should I first try decreasing fat percentage as low as I can, based on that recent metabolic ward study that shows that fat continues to be burned even if it's not eaten?
- Is there some periodicity that could be helpful, like eating ad libitum on LSD days but skipping breakfast (er, I mean "intermittent fasting") during the rest of the week?
- Will just increasing mileage eventually take care of it? I can eat a lot!

petero, I had no idea you were doing couch to 50K. Holy Crap! Good for you.

So, here are my educated guesses on all of the above, and take them with a grain of salt!:

1. If I had to guess, I'd guess that if your training continues steadily, your improvements will be steady as well. If anything, I would think that there would be some (mild) increased speed or increased endurance to be had in being 2 pounds lighter, then 4 pounds lighter, then 6 pounds lighter, etc. I'm not positive though!

2. I'm not positive I would bother with toggling your fat percentage! (That is, not unless you think that your intake is very high in fat, and that there would be a very easy reduction in daily caloric load to be had by doing so.). I HAVE lived the year and a half within that ten pound range, where I am between maybe 18 and 19 BMI, so I do feel like I have some notion of which things will move the scale toward the lower end of that range, and which things move the scale toward the higher end of that range.

For me, eating twice a day rather than multiple times, was the thing I originally did that dropped my body weight down to 18 BMI or so. Then, more recently, I've played with eating a more-or-less mandatory portion of raw vegetables or cooked vegetables with each meal -- and in doing so, eat less of everything else. -- Both of these are solid strategies that I have total faith in! If one of these can help you, then feel free to adapt them to your needs.

3. If the idea of fewer meal times SOME days of the week appeals to you, you could try it. It is not a bad idea, I only question why do alternating days or some such scheme??? Jeff Novick has a post about studies that used ideas like this as a weight loss intervention, and people who did schemes like that had no advantage over people who simply ate differently all seven days of the week. So, there y'go -- not inherently ineffective -- just no inherent advantage to doing this. But on a case by case basis, maybe it is a little gimmick that could work well for you? Worth trying on yourself if you are interested in experimenting.

4. Very few people can outrun their fork! Many distance runners here on this forum have commented on being able to carry excess body fat despite high weekly mileage they were/are doing. Perhaps they will chime in to comment. It is only dietary changes that seems to get the job done!

Those are just my impromptu answers, and I'm sure others will chime in to hazard a guess and offer an opinion! Curious to hear what others are thinking. Such good questions!

Thanks for your reply. The first thing I'm doing is eliminating processed foods that have crept in. Pretzels, bread, clif bars, soda, maltodextrin, even the occasional bag of unsalted Garden of Eatin' chips after a long day, because, you know, I "earned" it. I've been leery of purposely reducing calories because I've been exercising a lot, my leg muscle has been getting better, and my body fat seems to have been dropping. There was a steady but slow drop in body weight, too, until recently. It's not unreasonable to eat 5k calories on a day when I go 20-30 miles on trails. I've been focusing on eating enough, which is probably a mistake.

Anyway, just sticking to unprocessed food should drop my calories quite a bit, actually. It's pretty hard to get 3k-5k without processed food. The percentage of fat hasn't been high, most days it's around 10%. The higher the calories, the lower the percentage, because I eat the same amount of nuts and seeds every day. The other thing I've done right away is make my gorilla breakfast all-veggie.

I went on a trip last week where I ate horribly and got almost no exercise, so I probably won't weigh myself until next week. (The sodium alone would throw it off by a few pounds.) I guess I'll see how my next 50k PR attempt goes in a week or two, to see if I get better or worse.

Well it sounds like you have answered your own question! However, I do think that the person who initially answered your post is right in that you can't outrun calories. I personally feel that it is not a strict law of calories in and calories out when one eats low fat. Also, even though in answering your own question you state that it is hard to exercise as much as you do without processed foods, I am not sure about that. But if you follow your own advice and lose weight then good for you! (except for the processed foods part)

DeborahAnn wrote:Well it sounds like you have answered your own question!

Funny how that works. Like a Catholic confessional.

DeborahAnn wrote:I personally feel that it is not a strict law of calories in and calories out when one eats low fat.

I like to think that the science supports a slight "metabolic advantage" to low fat eating. There's that Cell Metabolism study, the inefficiency of lipogenesis, and the preferential storage of carbs as glycogen. But I think to really reap the rewards you have to get some exercise. Otherwise your tank is always full and excess will be converted to fat.

Anyway, I'm going to implement my own advice and see what happens. I'm going to have a hard time squeezing in enough exercise in the next couple of weeks because of sudden extra work demands. That'll be my biggest problem.

petero, keep us updated on this thread! I'm curious how this plays out for you.

I definitely think the intermittent fasting (or, as we call it in plain English, "skipping breakfast") makes life a little bit easier, once you can develop patterns around that, and I can understand your desire to NOT do such a thing on your long slow distance days (I had to look up what an LSD day was, because I knew you weren't thinking of Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds or any such thing!)

Let us know what you shift, to get the fat lower, also, and whether you feel that helps. Every person is such a big experiment, and it's good to hear about others' "lab results" and such.

Like others have said, it sounds like you've answered your own question. But thinking aloud can benefit others, so keep us posted with what you learn.

It sounds like the usual answer of manipulating calorie density is the key. In addition to the obvious villains, I would think there may be some benefit to changing the calorie density of meals based on training volume. Big day? Eat big. Plenty of starch. Light day? Dial down the calorie density a bit.

The only risk is recovery, so keep a close eye on how you feel. Most coaches suggest not trying to use any weight in season, but save that effort for the off season. They don't want a calorie deficit to interfere with training and recovery. But I think there's room there, if you keep in mind that recovery window after training that lasts for a few hours when glycogen storage happens at a faster rate. If you refuse adequately after training so that you're ready to go again the next day, I think you're OK.

Good luck

Ugh. It's not going well. I'm staffing up my workplace, but in the meantime have been working 16 hr days for the past 2 weeks, and was on a vacation for another week before that. I went running on Saturday for the first time since the 15th. I did not lose my trail legs but did lose fitness, and extensor tendonitis is back. Also I've been eating terribly. Still vegan of course, but that's pretty much guaranteed by ethics and the disgust factor anyway. I mean full-fat hummus and peanut butter, jelly, and jalapeno sandwiches primarily. Too much fruit. Too much beer. I still fit into my pants, however!

Another $75 going to a good cause, I guess...

MMMMM peanut butter and jelly sandwiches.......

No jalapenos? Next time I'll settle for a jalapeno, jalapeno jelly, and jalapeno sandwich. It'll be low fat!