Hunger, calories, weighing and measuring

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Re: Hunger, calories, weighing and measuring

Postby anne57 » Wed Feb 08, 2017 10:55 am

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Last edited by anne57 on Mon May 06, 2019 3:16 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Hunger, calories, weighing and measuring

Postby tmoody » Wed Feb 08, 2017 11:24 am

Franchesca_S. wrote:But now I'm sort-of in the zone and finding it easy to eat the potatoes, the cooked greens, the salads, and I'm not over eating.


At the moment, I'm feeling a little more tuned in myself, thanks to your comments and everyone else's in this thread. I'm grateful to read them.

Another thing that affects me is...cooking. I do better if I stay away from "recipes" that involve a lot of steps and time. I do better if I eat like this "low class vegan" guy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fUHpCASq8M): few ingredients, just keep it simple. The more caught up I get in "cuisine" the more I want to eat.
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Re: Hunger, calories, weighing and measuring

Postby vgpedlr » Thu Feb 09, 2017 1:25 pm

plant_eater wrote:
Couple things I wanted to clarify, I also do not take any supplements any more other then a good daily vitamin, and once every 2 weeks a supplemental iron pill and this is only during peak training periods.


Good to know we have a compliance Nazi on duty to vet our stories. I will make sure to keep to myself so as not to offend anyone.[/quote]
Perhaps comparing landog to fascists is hyperbole? Jeff periodically chimes in to remind people of the same thing.

Regarding the iron supplement, is this to correct a known deficiency discovered through a blood test? Are you currently monitoring iron levels via blood tests? Or are you making an assumption that your training load needs supplementation? It's worthwhile to remember that iron, while essential, is also a powerful PRO-oxidant, can build to toxic levels, particularly in men. Dr. Barnard has a great discussion on iron in his book Power Foods for the Brain. In sum, non-heme iron is safer because the body can comfortably regulate it, while heme iron or supplemental iron can overwhelm the body over time.

This program does not endorse any supplements other than B12 for general use. Supplements are treated much like medications, they are to be used if and when a diagnosed issue requires it, but not as a prophylactic. When users point out practices that are not part of the program, that is not necessarily meant as personal criticism, but clarification for everybody who reads the forum to learn about the McDougall Program. Of course people make up their own minds about exactly how they choose to implement it.
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Re: Hunger, calories, weighing and measuring

Postby vgpedlr » Thu Feb 09, 2017 3:00 pm

OP:

See my Lounge thread on using the CRON-O-Meter. Sometimes things look different in actual numbers than what you picture in your mind. I have been experimenting with it for two months and it has been a very interesting experience. I suggest starting there.
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Re: Hunger, calories, weighing and measuring

Postby spinner » Sun Feb 12, 2017 10:14 am

Hunger and portion control is such an important topic for me. I'm in my sixties as well, female, and have had some of the same experiences. About eight years ago I decided to lose weight. By doing the Ornish guidelines (I hadn't heard of McDougall then) I got to about 20 lbs above my goal weight and hit a plateau. I'm under 5'4" so 20 lbs for me is a higher percentage to lose. I decided to go to Weight Watchers so I would have to check in and be accountable, but count calories (for me, 1200) rather than the WW points. It worked and I got to my goal weight and maintained it for 3 short months. I didn't know how to add foods back for weight maintenance without opening the barn door and going food crazy. Of the 33 pounds I lost, I regained most of it, and the trend was creeping upward.

I would dearly love to be able to just eat until I am comfortably full, but my system seems to take an hour rather than 20 min. to determine that I am full, and by that time I can seriously overeat. I too am a volume eater. Sometimes I just want a BIG bowl of food. I do almost all of my own cooking and that helps, and I like veggies, fruit, potatoes, and rice. Potatoes are the most filling food I eat; if I just want to be really full, that's what I go for. Beans and lentils are more of an effort for me, but I have found two or three recipes that work and I try to eat beans several times a week. Counting calories is an inexact science, as Jeff has pointed out, but at this point I seem to need the discipline that little piece of paper demands so I know if I am eating within reason. In the past cheese has been an issue and I am currently able to resist it. Corn tortillas are not something I handle well so I stay away from them, sadly. I'm currently reading Judith Beck's The Beck Diet Solution book and it has reminded me that it is okay to get hungry and not immediately go eat. Apparently this is what some normal people put up with! I also remember Dr. McDougall writing or saying in a lecture that if your choice is eating off program food or going hungry for a while, going hungry might be the better option.

I've been under some family stress lately and have lost my appetite and a few pounds. It's a bad way to lose weight. My current BMI is about 27.5. I really want to get to the "normal" BMI range. All the science-based evidence confirms that the WFPB plan is by far the healthiest way of eating, and I enjoy the food. I am so grateful for Dr. McDougall, Jeff, and so many posters to this forum. You are my fellow "foodies", in the healthiest sense of the word. Long story short, I understand your issues of portion control and hunger, and you are certainly not alone in this.
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Re: Hunger, calories, weighing and measuring

Postby tmoody » Thu Feb 16, 2017 8:18 am

For the past week I've eaten just three foods: potatoes, sweet potatoes, and apples. I chose them because they're pretty filling. I did not weigh and measure and, against my better judgment, I stayed off the scale, until this morning. I ate until comfortably full and did not snack (I generally don't snack anyway). I didn't add anything like salsa or nutritional yeast; just some salt and pepper. I wasn't hungry very much, except sometimes in the evening, but I resisted the urge to eat more. I have no idea what my calorie intake was. This morning I did weigh myself and found that I gained 1.6 lbs, so not exactly a ringing success.

So, back to the drawing board. I do think it's important to weigh every day, so I'll resume that practice. I have to go away this weekend, which will be a challenge. I bought a big plastic container to put some food in, so I can stay out of restaurants. I'm not yet sure what I'll put in it, but it'll need to be something I can eat cold. The hotel always has a big bowl of apples in the lobby so I won't need to bring those!
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Re: Hunger, calories, weighing and measuring

Postby roundcoconut » Fri Feb 17, 2017 11:09 am

tmoody wrote:I didn't add anything like salsa or nutritional yeast; just some salt and pepper. I wasn't hungry very much, except sometimes in the evening, but I resisted the urge to eat more. I have no idea what my calorie intake was. This morning I did weigh myself and found that I gained 1.6 lbs, so not exactly a ringing success.


I just want to mention my experience with these things, which is that when I look around me, I see that we are a very food addicted society. I look around me, and I see people who are saddled with food addictions and with excess weight, who continue to dose themselves with excess food in excess quantities. This is kinda the nature of addiction -- people whose drug of choice is alcohol, will choose to drink, if they allow themselves the luxury of picking up the bottle whenever their body or their mind cries out for it.

And to someone who is used to eating MORE, or eating richer foods, just the switch to whole natural foods feels like LESS and feels like a humongous downshift, so it can be surprising to us that our body is not shedding excess weight. Still, that is what happens with ad libitum eating, for many of us.

It is a little bit like an alcoholic having two beers twice a day -- it FEELS a lot like sobriety, but maybe it doesn't get them to where they want to go. Their liver is still being assaulted (albeit much less) and the cravings for alcohol are being kept alive.

People who have developed the pattern of reaching for food to fill their boredom, to fill their time, to help them cope with feelings of emptiness, or WHATEVER -- these people cannot necessarily thrive by continuing to reach for food in these situations.

Sure, it is an OPTION, to simply transfer our food patterns to whole natural foods, and that does help with medical problems like heart disease and blood pressure and depression. But it is a little bit like an alcoholic choosing to do ad libitum drinking, on beer and wine. It'll help take the edge off of the severity of the consequences, but does not necessarily produce ideal outcomes.

So, it doesn't necessarily surprise me, that ad libitum eating hasn't been all it's cracked up to be, in your experience. That has been my experience too!
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Re: Hunger, calories, weighing and measuring

Postby tmoody » Fri Feb 17, 2017 11:20 am

roundcoconut wrote:And to someone who is used to eating MORE, or eating richer foods, just the switch to whole natural foods feels like LESS and feels like a humongous downshift, so it can be surprising to us that our body is not shedding excess weight. Still, that is what happens with ad libitum eating, for many of us.


Thank you, that is very well put. I feel like I'm quite ascetic in comparison to my previous way of eating, so I expect to see the scale reading drop, but it doesn't happen. I'm still very much addicted to food, any food.
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Re: Hunger, calories, weighing and measuring

Postby roundcoconut » Fri Feb 17, 2017 11:46 am

tmoody wrote:I feel like I'm quite ascetic in comparison to my previous way of eating, so I expect to see the scale reading drop, but it doesn't happen. I'm still very much addicted to food, any food.


For what it's worth, I DID decide a few weeks ago, to eat according to a pattern of three meals a day, no snacks, and I experienced a feeling of a fish flopping around on a boat. I wanted to climb the walls. I could've eaten the bark off a tree. But that "fish flopping around" feeling did not last for me, and after about a week of (somewhat harsh) adapting to the new patterns, I did not feel that emotional arousal associated with the new eating times.

And yet, while I was doing that "fish flopping around" thing, I was eating at a level that maintained my weight. It was not a calorie deficit that was making me want to eat tree bark -- just a withdrawal from old patterns that sedated me somewhat, but did not serve me in any real way.

Well, it is a work in progress for me!

One pattern that I have taken up for the last two weeks, is that I have begun to sequence my food, so that there IS a substantial volume of food being consumed, and yet there is a certain amount of order and structure to what I'm doing.

The "sequencing" thing, is this:
I eat my raw foods first. For some reason I really, really enjoy filling my belly with the volume and the fiber -- I will happily and gratefully eat celery and sweet bell peppers (red, yellow or orange) -- like, even three or four cups worth of this. I don't know if this is a crazy amount, but sometimes I really do go that high with my raw veg.

And then I eat my cooked vegetables -- I am in love with broccoli these days, and also cooked green bell pepper.

And then the last thing I eat is my starches and/or legumes, which for me is a measured portion.

Once that is gone and done, then the meal is over, and the dishes get cleaned and I brush my teeth and close the kitchen till the next (clock-dictated) eating.

For me, that is my path out of chaos, because I don't ever go back. I never say, "Oh, that chili I had was delicious, but let me cook up some more beets and eat those now". Because extending the meal is just deciding to binge (for me).

I don't know if that's useful in any way, but that's one way I've been structuring the food thing. Clock-dictated eating times, and sequenced meals. Just an idea! I DO think that sequnced eating, is a pattern that can be helpful in getting your caloric load down, while keeping feelings of satiety very high!

THAT was my actual point. Ha! I ramble a little bit sometimes. :)
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Re: Hunger, calories, weighing and measuring

Postby tmoody » Fri Feb 17, 2017 9:51 pm

I think I'll try food sequencing.
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Re: Hunger, calories, weighing and measuring

Postby tmoody » Wed Feb 22, 2017 8:38 am

Update: I haven't really done the food sequencing thing yet, but I have started measuring (not weighing) my food. I was already doing three meals and no snacks, so no change there.

My meals tend to be simple, with a few ingredients. Staples are potatoes, rice & beans, pasta once in a while. These are served with various vegetables. For example, as the rice is finishing cooking I'll dump in a bunch of frozen spinach. Breakfast and lunch include a piece of fruit or some berries. Lunch typically doesn't.

"Measuring" in this context means deciding in advance how much food is going to be enough, putting that amount on my plate/bowl and not going back for any more. With this mindset I make sure I take what I think will be "enough". That's all. I'm not tracking calories at this point, but doing this has already resulted in a loss of a couple of pounds. I do feel hungry a fair amount of the time, but I was feeling hungry before anyway, while not losing weight or even gaining. I guess "portion control" is the currently fashionable term for what I'm doing. In any event, the key is determining in advance how much I'm going to eat, rather than having "seconds" or thirds until I feel like stopping. I don't make any effort to skimp on my serving; quite the opposite. I make a conscious effort to take enough food so that I'm satisfied that one serving = one meal. This is in contrast to not taking enough food the first time and then needing to go back for more and ending up eating too much.

I don't know if this is sustainable but at the moment it's working.
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Re: Hunger, calories, weighing and measuring

Postby sirdle » Wed Feb 22, 2017 8:51 am

tmoody wrote:"Measuring" in this context means deciding in advance how much food is going to be enough, putting that amount on my plate/bowl and not going back for any more. With this mindset I make sure I take what I think will be "enough". That's all. I'm not tracking calories at this point, but doing this has already resulted in a loss of a couple of pounds.... I don't know if this is sustainable but at the moment it's working.

Glad it seems to be working! Please keep us posted!

Cheers, :-P
"Before Enlightenment chop wood, carry water. After Enlightenment chop wood, carry water." -- Zen proverb
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Re: Hunger, calories, weighing and measuring

Postby Qwerty988 » Fri Feb 24, 2017 6:06 am

tmoody wrote:I guess "portion control" is the currently fashionable term for what I'm doing. In any event, the key is determining in advance how much I'm going to eat, rather than having "seconds" or thirds until I feel like stopping. I don't make any effort to skimp on my serving; quite the opposite. I make a conscious effort to take enough food so that I'm satisfied that one serving = one meal. This is in contrast to not taking enough food the first time and then needing to go back for more and ending up eating too much.

I don't know if this is sustainable but at the moment it's working.


I'm not sure if this will be helpful, but I've been using portion control too and having good results. How I've made this work is by using portion control (measuring) only for the 50% of my plate that's made up of starches, and then having unlimited portions of the other 50% that's supposed to be just veggies, and also allowing myself an unlimited amount of salad before, during and after the meal if I still feel hungry or like eating more.

What I'm finding is that by forcing myself to take in all these extra veggies, every meal, I'm actually less hungry and more satisfied overall. My appetite is shifting because my meals are more nutrient-dense now, and nutrient density is one of the ways the brain recognizes satiety. I didn't believe it, but it turns out to really work (for me, anyway).

It felt weird at first and like a real inconvenience because I'm usually a starch-only person, but now I'm actually craving the salad and side veggies. (And finally losing, after almost a year of gaining!) I only mention it because I'm a volume eater too and if I had to restrict myself on everything all the time I'd probably feel too deprived to stay with it long-term. :)
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