Question about reported weight loss during tests vs ongoing

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Question about reported weight loss during tests vs ongoing

Postby douglerner » Mon May 23, 2016 4:42 pm

Hi. I find my way here via a convoluted route: I had a heart attack in 2012 and decided to start the Ornish heart disease reversal program. I did lose about 100 lb and managed to stay on the diet for about 2 years, but then weight started coming on again and eventually I fell off the program and have regaining 1/2 of what I lost. As a result my blood sugar HbA1c has also gone up again.

I know from past experience that if I can just lose weight my blood sugar will go down - no matter what I eat. But for various reasons I was having trouble getting back on Ornish. Also I was failing at calorie counting again. I've lost 100 lb and regained it maybe 10 times in my life.

My latest bad experiment was trying "Always Hungry?" from February to April. That's a low carb diet and the results weren't good at all (see http://lerner.net/the-always-hungry-die ... i-move-on/).

Anyway, I find myself back at trying vegan, no oil, no nuts and the McDougall plan which stresses starches seems interesting if it works. I have to admit, though, I think I started gaining weight on Ornish because I started eating too much brown rice. But we'll see.

Anyway, McDougall's plan seems "reasonable" in so many ways. However these sections from the maximum weight loss guidelines raised a skeptical eyebrow for me:

How Well Does the “Regular” McDougall Program Work?

We have collected weight loss data on nearly 300 people who have attended our basic McDougall Program in Santa Rosa, California and found that with unrestricted eating (buffet tables of delicious healthy foods, three meals a day, and snacks all day long), the average weight loss is a half a pound a day – 3.5 pounds in a week – translated into 14 pounds a month – and so on, until trim body weight is reached.


and

How Well Does the Maximum Weight Loss Program Work?

This past month (January 14 to 23, 2005) we held our first 10-day live-in program based upon the principles of Maximum Weight Loss – designed by Mary and John McDougall almost 20 years ago to help people lose weight faster and easier, and to maintain that new size. Thousands of people have successfully followed this program at home. Some implement the rules strictly, all of the time, and others simply use the more limiting program for short periods to lose a few stubborn pounds, returning to the “regular” McDougall Program for most of the year. (The most significant difference, as you will soon learn, is that the “regular” program uses whole grain flour products, like breads, bagels, and muffins, and more fruits, juices and other simple sugars.)

The average weight loss achieved in this first ever Maximum Weight Loss Live-in Program held at our clinic in Santa Rosa, California was slightly over 4.5 pounds in 7 days – in other words, about one pound more than is lost in the usual program for the week. (That’s 52 extra well-deserved pounds in a year from that extra effort.)


The way that is phrased is what made me feel a bit skeptical. I have no doubt that over a one week or one 10-day trial people could lose 3.5 lb and 4.5 lb.

But then to multiply it out and say "That's 52 extra well-deserved points in a year" - well, does that make sense? Everybody knows that the first week or two on just about any diet you lose a lot of weight. Then it slows down to some regular, slower pace weight loss.

So my question is why is it reported that way and are there longer-term trials which show actual sustained weight loss at that rate?

Finally - is all this in Dr. McDougall's latest book? I'm wondering which book is the book I should buy if I don't have any of them yet.

Thanks!

doug
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Re: Question about reported weight loss during tests vs ongo

Postby Lesliec1 » Tue May 24, 2016 6:41 am

Just my personal experience: I agree with the claim that following the MWL program will add an extra lb of weight loss per week. The main point of MWL is to raise your vegetable consumption a LOT. Even before I found this way of eating, I realized that slamming the vegetables was the way to lose weight FAST and never, ever hit a plateau. I lost 2.5 lbs every week for aImost a year (and it probably would have been more if I was on this particular program. I was vegan but not fat-free.) The "green veggie thing" was the most important weight loss factor I've ever learned. Again, just my experience. Of course many people don't care about speed of loss so they just do the regular plan.

Why not give it a try? If you follow it perfectly, you'll find out very fast if it works.

Yes, buy The Starch Solution. If you want to start before it gets here, go to the EDUCATION tab above and find the Free Program. It's all there. If you want to do MWL, the guidelines are right here on this message board- near the top.
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Re: Question about reported weight loss during tests vs ongo

Postby roundcoconut » Tue May 24, 2016 8:10 am

Re which books (if any) to buy:
I haven't found the books of the plant-based doctors to be terribly useful! (I have the ebook versions of Starch Solution, Pleasure Trap, How Not to Die, My Beef with Meat, and probably a few others. Have read Eat to Live and others, but do not own a copy). The books seem to stay too much on the surface for me, and be motivational more than informational. I don't know why I even buy them!

I like Dr Greger's How Not to Die the most, but would rather see you watch the hour-long YouTube videos from Esselstyn, Goldhamer, Lisle, McDougall, Greger, and others. They are better speakers than writers, if you ask me.

The best nutritional information -- in depth and in detail -- comes from reading everything you can on Jeff Novick's forum, and also viewing his snap meals, and also finding any videos you can get your hands on. He really knows how to talk the nuts and bolts of excellent health.

I want to comment really quickly on your comment, "This'll be really interesting if it works" -- because if you're eating whole natural foods (and not everyone does) -- meaning food as grown, cooked or raw, in abundant quantities, but without much of your intake dedicated toward sauces, puréed foods, tofu, bread, plant milks, crackers, added salt, added sugar, etc. -- then it would be immediately obvious to you that this is something far more healthful than what you've tried before.

I may be completely wrong, but it sounds to me like you are considering eating a portion-controlled, no-oil vegan diet, heavy on the starches. And it seems to me, that people don't always get the results they want by doing things that way, because you're eating foods that may need you to use the manual brakes.

I often say that there are (moderately doctored) plant-based foods that I could eat unto infinity, such as canned kidney beans (the regular smooshy kind with sugar and salt added), or bread (even Ezekiel bread), or probably any Mac-n-cheez recipe, or absolutely ANYTHING with peanut butter. Everybody's different, but try not to include the plant-based foods that you would tend to go a little past full with; but try not to exclude the plant-based foods that are fine for you. (You may be able to eat nuts in appropriate quantities, or avocados or tofu. No sense in avoiding things that you can use appropriately, as a condiment.)

Lots of thoughts there. Hope something resonates!
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Re: Question about reported weight loss during tests vs ongo

Postby douglerner » Tue May 24, 2016 4:54 pm

I may be completely wrong, but it sounds to me like you are considering eating a portion-controlled, no-oil vegan diet, heavy on the starches. And it seems to me, that people don't always get the results they want by doing things that way, because you're eating foods that may need you to use the manual brakes.

I often say that there are (moderately doctored) plant-based foods that I could eat unto infinity, such as canned kidney beans (the regular smooshy kind with sugar and salt added), or bread (even Ezekiel bread), or probably any Mac-n-cheez recipe, or absolutely ANYTHING with peanut butter. Everybody's different, but try not to include the plant-based foods that you would tend to go a little past full with; but try not to exclude the plant-based foods that are fine for you. (You may be able to eat nuts in appropriate quantities, or avocados or tofu. No sense in avoiding things that you can use appropriately, as a condiment.)


Yes, I was planning on doing no-oil vegan, heavy on the starches. Isn't that what this diet is all about?

I probably won't be eating breads, because I can't find any 100% whole wheat ones here.

Nuts are not allowed on this diet, right? Anyway, they are enormously calorific and extremely high in fat, and I can't stop once I start eating them.

doug
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Re: Question about reported weight loss during tests vs ongo

Postby geo » Tue May 24, 2016 6:41 pm

Does it work? Yes, better than you can ever imagine!

Look at my testimonial link in my sig for real results of the MWL program.

Look at my journal link in my sig for exactly how I did every single day for a year...all details logged.

The only thing it takes is simply to do it.

My results are typical and expected!
geo

My 1 year Journal McDougalling and results Testimonial
My March 2013 Star McDougaller Story
Some Random Thoughts on Successful McDougalling
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Re: Question about reported weight loss during tests vs ongo

Postby douglerner » Tue May 24, 2016 6:42 pm

geo wrote:Does it work? Yes, better than you can ever imagine!

Look at my testimonial link in my sig for real results of the MWL program.

Look at my journal link in my sig for exactly how I did every single day for a year...all details logged.

The only thing it takes is simply to do it.

My results are typical and expected!


I will go read them right now! :)

Thanks,

doug
douglerner
 
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Joined: Sun May 22, 2016 6:10 pm

Re: Question about reported weight loss during tests vs ongo

Postby douglerner » Tue May 24, 2016 7:12 pm

geo wrote:Does it work? Yes, better than you can ever imagine!

Look at my testimonial link in my sig for real results of the MWL program.

Look at my journal link in my sig for exactly how I did every single day for a year...all details logged.

The only thing it takes is simply to do it.

My results are typical and expected!


Wow. I just read your testimonial and your chart of changes and saw your before and after photo and... wow. All I can is wow. Inspirational!

You and I are also the same age now.

So you've been able to keep that weight off since 2013?

doug
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