Volume Eating?

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Volume Eating?

Postby greenteen » Tue Mar 31, 2015 8:41 pm

Hi! I'm new to this website, but I have been vegan for over a year and a half and I've been on the starch solution (loosely) for the past six months. I have lost 20 pounds since starting the Starch Solution, and I had lost 30 pounds before that through calorie restricting. I'm 15 years old, 5'5'' (maybe a little shorter :roll: ) and 134 pounds. I want to lose 10 or 15 more pounds because I still look quite heavy compared to most girls my age... but in the past few months I've been at a plateau.
I think my volume eating is to blame. I can easily eat 5 cups of cooked veggies at a meal and then polish off 2 cans of beans and a few potatoes. I have been known to eat up to 3 bags of puffed grains (10 cups per bag!) and still be able to eat a few pieces of fruit and a container or two of McDougall's soups. Some days, the cafeteria won't have any vegan food except bananas, peanut butter, and toast... and I can easily eat up to 10 bananas, a few pieces of toast, and several big dollops of peanut butter. In the past 2 months, there has been lots of volume eating on dried and fresh fruits, white rice, bread, and oily foods (I am talking 3-5 thousand calories a day) because I was traveling and then got into the habit of eating those foods. Luckily I did not gain much weight (if any at all), but I am trying to get back on the MWL program. But even when I do eat less palatable foods, I can very easily "binge" and eat thousands of calories in whole foods. The next day I try and eat less but I usually end up eating more than planned anyway. How do I address this volume eating? Everywhere else I ask (around high carb vegan community), people will say that I need to be eating 2500 calories a day anyway. But I doubt that I really need to be eating that many calories, especially to lose weight.
Am I the only one who seems to be able to eat crazy amounts of food? How do I stop so I can finally lose the last bit of weight?
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Re: Volume Eating?

Postby sksamboots » Wed Apr 01, 2015 10:04 am

Reading your post I question how much you are doing MWL. Maybe post a few days menu here so we can look at it more. But here are the principles just in case

Begin with leafy green salads and bowl of shredded carrots, beets, celery, onions, and cabbage as options to top your salad.


Then, choose any of 4 distinctly different flavorful, fat-free salad dressings which are set on the serving table. For example, Oriental, Berry Vinaigrette, and Tofu Island. (Find dressings in the August 2004 newsletter.)


Next take generous helpings two raw vegetable salads, like fat-free Coleslaw, Tomato Vegetable Salad, and Spinach Salad.


Then you come to two hot steamed green and/or yellow vegetable dishes are served, like seasoned steamed carrots, zucchini, kale, baby bok choy, or broccoli. Our guests were asked to eat full servings of these very low calorie dishes before moving on to the starches.


At every lunch and dinner take a bowl full of delicious soup based on beans and/or vegetables. Popular examples included Black Bean, Broccoli, Sweet Potato, and White Bean.


Finally, finish off your meal with the starchy entree (like Shepherd's Pie, Mexican meal, or Stuffed Green Peppers) and you will find yourself fully satisfied until the next meal, (sometimes coming only 2 hours later as a hearty snack).
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Re: Volume Eating?

Postby 000 » Wed Apr 01, 2015 10:48 am

See my post to the 15-year-old on this. I was a volume eater before I got control on the plan I outlined. I'm at a skinny body weight for the first time since being plant based over six years ago. Check it out, it might work for you too. Volume eating is one of the dirty secrets of carby plant based eating that is under-discussed or attributed to "you don't understand calorie density>" It's not that simple and the needs of us volume eaters are better addressed by ignoring calorie density and attacking the problem with structure and pre-planning, understanding the science of stomach stretch receptors. These concepts are frowned upon in the plant based community, but it's a successful solution to the problem of volume eating. Check out my post on the 15-year-old's thread.
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Re: Volume Eating?

Postby scooterpie » Wed Apr 01, 2015 12:21 pm

April Fools? Please say it is! I think Dr McD's old newsletter is the original source for the use of the euphemism "volume eating," which actually means "binge eating." Volume sounds so much less harsh than binge. I guess.

If not a joke and you want a legitimate response, here goes. Depending on your birthdate, according to a child/teen BMI calculator, your weight is probably healthy as is--your BMI is around 22. You're still growing and your brain is far from finished developing, not to mention your bones. It's more important to be getting optimum nutrition than to lose weight if you're at a healthy weight.

IMO, you just might have a good reason to tell a responsible adult how you've been eating so you can be evaluated for an eating disorder. (You did ask how you can stop, to be fair.) You should probably have some basic bloodwork to see if you're not missing something nutritionally, which might lead to disordered eating for some.

Or perhaps you have a tapeworm named Tommy inhabiting your stomache. It sounds outlandish to able to eat as much as you report and not be completely immobilized for several hours or to vomit it all up soon after. Even if you're extremely active in some sport, I'd think you'd have to let things settle before becoming active.

Then again what do I know. I'm just a casual poster on here. I have no expertise in eating disorders, tapeworms, binge eating, puffed rice or eating ten bananas at one sitting.
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Re: Volume Eating?

Postby roundcoconut » Wed Apr 01, 2015 2:17 pm

Yeah, I would agree with what scooterpie said about "volume eating" just being another term for "binge eating on healthy foods".

I have experienced binge eating behaviors coming through with whole foods, and it's not something to "let continue" or "let slide". It's nothing to dismiss as being "OK" or healthy. It feels awful, and it's not a good thing to do to your body.

Consider adopting the Bright Lines framework that's been discussed on these boards. Or, consider finding a 12-step program that will allow you to adopt a whole-foods-plant-based way of eating.

You may need to assist any supportive family members in helping you to put a proper amount of food on your plate (even if you choose a very, very large plate) and then *leave* your meal and not eat again until the next meal time. Binge eating will only get worse if you indulge it. Binge eating on broccoli and potatoes is still binge eating. If your belly is grossly distended when you're done eating, and you feel like crap, it's good to do something about that.

** I wanted to note that if you seek help for an eating disorder, you need to be vocal and insistent that you do not want to adopt an "all food has its place" approach, where you are encouraged to partake of soda or birthday cake or animal products. Tell them you want to adopt the health guidelines of Dr Esselstyn, Dr Goldhamer, Dr McDougall, etc. and it's your body and you won't bend. You're 15, but you're old enough to make up your own mind about how you wanna eat, and how you want to be helped.
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Re: Volume Eating?

Postby greenteen » Wed Apr 01, 2015 6:07 pm

Sadly, this isn't an April Fool's joke. I really do binge out like this on a semi-regular basis (and I do agree binge is a better term; it's just on these forums I usually hear it referred to as volume eating but perhaps that doesn't fit my case as well). I have talked to my mom about it, and she told me to avoid snacking and to keep myself busy. My therapist told me to count calories and learn about portion sizes, but I already had been doing that and now it just stresses me out. The fact is I'm just constantly unsatisfied. My friends say it's because the food I eat is so plain and boring, so I eat large quantities to try and satisfy myself. But even when I try eating more palatable foods (like dried fruits or noodles with soy sauce or tomato paste), I still eat a lot...
I try to stick to the maximum weight loss program, but since I live at school and don't have any access to a kitchen (besides a microwave) it's really hard. The cafeteria usually has cooked veggies and plain salad (no oil free dressings), so at lunch I will eat several bowls of boiled(?) veggies (brussels sprouts, broccoli, carrots, green beans, cabbage... it depends on the day), or a plate of salad greens with cucumbers and cherry tomatoes and raw mushrooms with no dressing. I will do that for dinner, too. The average weekday looks like this:
Breakfast: 2-4 apples or bananas from the cafeteria
Snack: a bowl of tomato soup (made with 1 can no salt added tomato paste, hot water, and black pepper)
Lunch: 3 bowls of boiled brussels sprouts from cafeteria, then a can of no salt-added beans from my dorm, possibly another bowl of tomato soup
Snack: a banana before my run
Dinner: big plate of salad greens, bowl or two of cooked bok choy, and a decent sized bowl of white rice (or brown if I'm lucky) from the caf. If I'm still hungry I will go back to my dorm and have more beans.
The weekends are when I usually binge. I have less to do and the cafeteria is mostly closed so I don't have any veggies until it's open for dinner. So weekends I will usually end up going through all the puffed grains or fruit. And my friends will take me out to Whole Foods and convince me I need to "treat myself," but it's my fault for giving in and agreeing to share some granola with them or eating a pack of dried figs and a bottle of kombucha. And then there's Sunday brunch, where all the vegan things they have are fruit, bread and peanut butter, and I can easily go overboard on that. So weekends are usually just giant cheats. :/
Whoa. Writing this out has REALLY helped a lot. I think I just need to say no to eating non-MWL foods and maybe stay away from foods on the weekend? And I should probably eat less fruit. I usually have fruit for breakfast in the mornings because I like eating later after the caf is closed and its easy to run in and grab several pieces of fruit. Also I'm afraid of eating oatmeal (and garbanzo beans on a separate note) because they're higher in fat. But then on the weekend it's out the window and I've eaten a cup and a half of granola. So I need to learn how to keep my willpower steady throughout the week.
All this is easier said than done I think...
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Re: Volume Eating?

Postby roundcoconut » Wed Apr 01, 2015 8:48 pm

Greenteen, you may benefit from reading as much literature as you can by people who deeply understand food addictions.

Check out people like Kay Sheppard and Joan Ifland, who deeply understand food addictions (which is what binge eating comes from -- a chemical reaction to particular foods, or even from binge eating large quantities of healthy foods), but whose solutions do not incorporate a plant-based diet. There is also this new woman Susan Peirce Something, whose Bright Lines Eating is perfect for binge eaters, and whose program is easily adapted to a whole foods plant based life.

What I can tell you from personal experience with all of this, is that you absolutely *can* heal your relationship with food, heal any shame about binge eating episodes (lots of people have dealt with this -- you're far from unique), and feel sane and safe around food.

Part of the prescription is developing behaviors that define certain foods and certain eating as strictly off limits. So, if you decide that mealtimes are at 9-ish, noonish, and then again at 5ish, then unless it's one of those times, then your job is to do *anything* in the living room or in the library or at the gym. (You are to away from kitchens, restaurants, and convenience stores.)

Also off-limits: foods that trigger binge behaviors. If you have binged on it in the past (except for whole foods that have been part of binges, because most whole foods need to stay), then it is strictly off-limits. This usually means all types of sugars (even fake ones), including maple syrup, honey, brown sugar or brown rice syrup. This usually means flour, or anything containing flour. And this usually means fatty and salty foods.

I find an SOS-free diet (sugar-oil-salt-free) to be best for me and my binge-eating tendencies as well. Salt is by far the mildest of the three, but I still do best even casting that out of my circle of acquaintances. Some food addicts need to restrict nuts. I do not eat nuts as part of my food plan, and I believe that's for the best.

You also need to establish a quantity for how much you will eat at each meal. It can be as simple as saying, "Anything that fits on one plate, even if that plate is mounded up with food, is fair game." For me, anything that fits in a large-ish saucepan is fair game, plus I do munch on some raw veggies as I prepare my meal.

Needless to say, do the best with your environment. Read Kay Sheppard's book "From the First Bite" -- you really need to plan your environment to seldom be in difficult situations, and you need to know how to resist like the dickens when your friends encourage you to eat a little bit of this, a little bit of this. It's not easy at first, but once people get used to you saying, "I won't eat any granola" then it's not such a shock when you say it a third time, or a fourth or a fifth.

Needless to say, your therapist has no experience with food addicts -- most people don't. It's not your job to educate them, but please understand that they are misinformed. If you want to point them to the work of Kay Sheppard, Joan Ifland' or Susan Pierce, maybe they will develop some understanding. But they are worse than useless until they inform themselves.

Best of luck! You've got work to do, but it's good work. I hope you succeed, and want to hear all about it as you go.

Quick note: eat starch at every meal. Doesn't have to be a ton, but if you don't have the calorie density of starch somewhere in the mix of every single meal, then you will be triggered to binge eat. I've learned this one first-hand so please trust me. Two medium potatoes, or a cup of brown rice is probably about right as a starting point, and then adjust up or down depending on how you are responding.
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Re: Volume Eating?

Postby viv » Thu Apr 02, 2015 8:18 am

Hi Greenteen,

Well no wonder you are starving and always looking for something to eat, you are simply not satisfied because you are not eating enough STARCH! Currently it seems like you are eating more like Furhmann's Eat to Live program, which many of us here (including me) gave up because it was just not sustainable, eating tons of greens and never feeling full. STARCH will fill you up and satisfy your cravings.

As you are a teenager within the normal weight range, I recommend going on the regular McDougall program which is more satisfying and will help you curb your cravings. Dr. McDougall recommends making STARCH as the main dish with greens and fruit only as sides.

For breakfast instead of just fruit, can you get oatmeal or wholewheat toast or rice or some other starch from the cafeteria with the addition of one or two fruits?

Snack: instead of soup, can you get a potato or some other starch?

Dinner: instead of a big plate of salad greens, have rice and beans or potatoes. Remember, make STARCH the main dish with salad on the side.

On the week ends again, remember to eat enough starch at breakfast, lunch and dinner. Then go out with your friends and enjoy yourself!

Is there any way you can get a microwave in your room? Maybe your parents can arrange it for you. It would be great if you could have a supply of potatoes and just zap one in the microwave when you are hungry.

Good luck. It must be hard being away from home at your age and you are doing great, you are taking care of your health and staying plant strong despite everyone around you eating differently. Good for you! Now go and eat some starch! (My fave is potatoes, I could eat them all day long!)

Viv
5'8", Started March 2013
Starting weight: 217
Current weight: 157
60lbs gone--for good!
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Re: Volume Eating?

Postby roundcoconut » Thu Apr 02, 2015 9:04 am

Yes to what Viv said! You want to get your body on a program of foods that offer enough satiety (potatoes, sweet potatoes, rice, beans, quinoa, etc.) and includes enough volume (vegetables for example) and enough fiber (any whole food). You want to give your body (including your blood sugar and your brain) the best platform from which to be able to leave the meal once it's been eaten.

I will add one other thing, which is that you might do best to only cook as much as you plan to eat in a sitting. And only buy as much as you plan to eat that day. Keeping ready-to-eat food is really, really dicey when you first get going. Some people here will cook up all their potatoes for the week on a Sunday, and then eat them throughout the week. Me, I would find that torturous. If eating is your addiction, then you want to engage in it, and ten pounds worth of cooked potatoes in the fridge can seem like an invitation to a binge.

On the other hand, having plenty of food in its uncooked state (dry brown rice, uncooked squash, oranges that would need to be peeled before they could be eaten) is usually fine for anyone at any place on their path.

Once you develop a decent period of staying on your food plan, whatever you decide that to be (there are many ways to do it right!), then you will understand what this whole healthy relationship with food should feel like. Until then, your body chemistry requires you to take what other people might feel are some harsh measures, like forcing yourself away from the table, out of the kitchen, and denying yourself seconds (which would lead to thirds and fourths) of even things as innocuous as carrots. But I feel those are the things that would help you, and they would be worth doing!
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Re: Volume Eating?

Postby scooterpie » Thu Apr 02, 2015 11:38 am

Good God y'all--this is a child for crying out loud! A 15 y/o in my opinion shouldn't be seeking diet or food addiction advice from anywhere on the internet unless her parents are involved. Just because this is a wholly healthy way FOR MOST PEOPLE to eat, it may NOT be what SHE needs at the moment.

greenteen, your parents and you can get diet advice from a reputable source here--Jeff Novick, Registered Dietician. He recently began consulting services, but it may be on a limited basis. Your parents could email him.

Other than that. I hate to break it to you, but a lot of what you're eating has very little food value IMO--tomato paste plus water and black pepper isn't nutritious at all. No wonder you're overeating by miles and miles and miles. You may be malnourished or you have something serious going on with your overall health. Again if you haven't seen a dr for basic bloodwork and a physical, it's probably a good idea. You may have some underlying disease state that needs to be addressed before your situation gets really out of hand. As in you stop having menstrual periods, you begin showing signs of osteoporosis or you develop a full-blown eating disorder.

I caution you that sometimes people start one thing with one intention and over time it develops into something else that they have no control over.

I wish you well--you need to work with your parents on this one instead of expecting that a bunch of non-professionals on this board know what to say to you. My answer is just based on life and opinion, I have no expertise one way or the other--as I mentioned above. I was 15 about 40 years ago--none of the food obsessions, eating disorder and obsessive eating were a part of MY life at that time. In fact they weren't a "thing" at that time in my world or the world of my friends and classmates.

I feel sorry for the last few generations who aren't just going around being 15 yr olds. Those days are gone forever--and 40 years isn't really that long ago;-)

Good Luck!
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Re: Volume Eating?

Postby roundcoconut » Thu Apr 02, 2015 4:53 pm

scooterpie wrote:Good God y'all--this is a child for crying out loud! A 15 y/o in my opinion shouldn't be seeking diet or food addiction advice from anywhere on the internet unless her parents are involved.

I feel sorry for the last few generations who aren't just going around being 15 yr olds. Those days are gone forever--and 40 years isn't really that long ago;-)


I know! It's so hard. 15 years old would be a great time to be deciding how you like to dress and what kind of music you like listening to and reading a bunch of awesome books. But here we are!

I've known so many teens who had to be their own advocate and their own educator, unfortunately. I've known the gay kids and the cutters and the ones dealing with the aftermath of emotional neglect or sexual abuse. I think I also was that same kind of kid, who just had to be resourceful and seek out sources of support, because my parents weren't up to it. It would be great if everyone's parents knew what was needed, but parents often don't fully understand.

TerriNC's post on her niece helps me feel that this doesn't have to spiral into some unsolvable problem.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=47208&hilit=niece

Binge eating is just a behavior and behaviors can be curtailed, just like shoplifting or cutting class. It does have chemical underpinnings, so it's important that those be understood as well.

GreenTeen, even if you have ill-informed adults around you, do the best you can to evaluate the information you have access to, try out some options that seem reasonable and see how they work! Tweak, adjust, or move to plan B -- as necessary.
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